The Notorious Clockmaker

My "Objection to Religion" thread last year was directed at fundamentalists. I realize now that Zelaron is not the place to debunk radical fundamentalism. I doubt anyone here actually believes any of that crap. What I have seen from a lot of people is the belief in a higher power who is indifferent to the petty commonalities of everyday life but whose existence is absolutely necessary for the universe to exist.

Hopefully, then, this will draw more discussion. This is directed at the deists.

I admit, on the surface deism makes some sense. It is almost natural to believe that what we don't understand is a work of God. But what you are doing is creating a God of gaps. Whatever we don't have a natural explanation for you explain it away with the supernatural.

At one point in time, lightening was an unexplained phenomena. The ancient Greek's explained it by saying that Zeus threw lightening when he was angry. Well, at this point in time the big bang is an unexplained phenomena. What you are doing is explaining it away by postulating the existence of a God who created the universe. Except for the details the two scenarios are almost indistinguishable. Both involve a natural phenomena that at one point was/is not understood. In both cases people thought/think that the phenomena was eternally inexplicable through natural causes.

Today we have a near-complete understanding of lightening. We don't think that it's God who is throwing the lightening. We understand that there are electrostatic forces at work. Everything we have ever come across has a natural explanation. It is not so far-fetched to think that the big-bang can be explained as well given sufficient time. Science is constantly expanding. We need to be patient and allow it to elucidate the mysteries of our world rather than jumping to impetuous conclusions.

Your beliefs don't contravene any obvious scientific facts. That doesn't change the fact that you believe that magic happened 15 billion years ago (give or take), and then the universe came into existence. Let's go ahead and admit that this is what you believe. You claim that there is not any natural cause for the big bang. It has to be supernatural. Any supernatural event is, by definition, magic.

Does it really take less faith to believe that magic happened 15 billion years ago rather than 6,000 years ago? Does it really take less faith to believe that magic only happened once, rather than continuously throughout various stages of history? Surely if magic can happen once it can happen again. And surely it is just as likely to have occurred 6,000 years ago as it is 15 billion years ago. Are those who believe in the literal story of Moses simpletons, but you a champion of reason? If so, why? If magic occurred once then all the laws of our universe are nullified. Anything is possible. In fact, the Moses-folk have more evidence for their magic than you. They have a written record!

Furthermore, your application of magic doesn't even answer any questions. It raises more, if anything. If everything was created by God, that just begs the question what God was created by. It is an infinite regression. We have observed in our universe that complexity increases with time through evolutionary processes. Any supreme being capable of creating the entire universe must be inconceivably complex. A young universe being generated spontaneously by random chance starts to appear more likely than the extraordinarily complex creator of everything appearing spontaneously.

There are two main arguments in support of deism. One is the existence of something rather than nothing. We have already addressed this issue. Though this seems inexplicable now through natural causes, be patient. Give science time. Don't jump to rash conclusions. The other argument says that the universe is too perfect for it to simply exist. How could it be by random that the universe is so perfectly adapted for us? I wish to address this issue next.

It is not the universe which has adapted to us, it is us who have adapted to the universe. Any sentient being pondering its existence must exist in a universe which is suitable for it. This might best be explained allegorically.

Imagine a hole in the ground. It is a hole which is normally dry. However, one day it rains. The hole is now filled with a puddle. What would happen if this puddle gained consciousness? It would think, "Wow. What a hole. It is so perfectly designed for me. It must have been created with me in mind. Every nook, every cranny, it fits perfectly!" The puddle believes that the hole was created for it, when in reality it is the puddle which conformed to the shape of the hole. Thus it is for life, specifically humans. We have adapted, not the other way around.

Imagine a hole in the ground. It is a hole which is normally dry. However, one day it rains. The hole is now filled with a puddle. What would happen if this puddle gained consciousness? It would think, "Wow. What a hole. It is so perfectly designed for me. It must have been created with me in mind. Every nook, every cranny, it fits perfectly!" The puddle believes that the hole was created for it, when in reality it is the puddle which conformed to the shape of the hole. Thus it is for life, specifically humans. We have adapted, not the other way around.

Good write-up. As for this last paragraph, you are trying to explain creatitism in the sense that we are forming to the world we live in, when in fact, you are correct about this aspect of the matter, but what you don't consider is where the world we are forming to have come from. We cannont judge our time continuium on science, because it is beyond anything we will probably ever understand of how God works. We are on a separate time plane than god, there have been many theorists that try and evaluate of how we are on a timeplane of which god cannot be, "he always has been and always will be" means he literally is not in the same continuinum (as so to put it) as we are. He was here before we started and will be here after we end. What you also have to consider, is even our single galaxy cannot be traced back and studied far enough to determine it's origin. Basic theories boil down to the big bang theory, but the next question is, where did the molecules that rapidly expanded come from? They we're ALWAYS here? There's no way that can be. That's why I believe there is something greater than us, and that I believe in God, because of the scientific aspect..

Until everything is explained, I'm going to come up with my own theories. If everyone just sat around waiting for it to get explained it would never get explained.

I understand what you're saying, MJ, but there's most likely NEVER going to be an explaination as to what started the big bang, or what created that being or object that started the big bang, and where that came from, and where that came from. It's got to be infinite.

I don't claim that there was a God that started everything, that is just my theory. I don't present that as fact, or even as a likelyhood, only my own guess at what the hell is going on. Until my theory is proven or disproven, or until there's more evidence for another theory than mine, my theory is just as valid as yours.

You make it sound like people claim that God started everything, and people claim that a "supreme power" started the big bang, and you're grouping those people together in the same group. By having a theory that a supreme power started the big bang, I am not the same as those fanaticals who will argue to the grave with you that they are right and you are wrong.

Pretty much, until some evidence arises, we could both be equally wrong, so anyone claiming anything to be more right than anyone else at this time is an asshat.

Remember, MJ, some people might think it's turtles all the way down, and nobody really has a right to tell them that they are wrong at this point in time. You don't know anything for a fact regarding the big bang.

And really, nobody knows anything for a fact regarding anything. All fact is based in opinion.

The problem is, like I said. NO TIME probably within hundreds of years will ANY evidence ever be present, that's assuming our world isn't destroyed by the time we can better examine what has happened in our own galaxy, etc.

And what do you guys presume about the other galaxies? I mean the Big bang theory is only for our own galaxy, what about other galaxies that have drifted apart from us. Like I've said, I only see a greater being as starting our galaxies because their thought and intellegence is so far above ours that we cannot apprehend what is really going on. For all we know, we could be under a microscope right now being viewed by something much greater.


..Like in the Matrix.

D3v, do you even know anything about the big bang theory?

And what do you guys presume about the other galaxies? I mean the Big bang theory is only for our own galaxy, what about other galaxies that have drifted apart from us.

The big bang theory is not only for our galaxy. The big bang theory attempts to explain the origin of the universe. It is WHY other galaxies are moving away from us.

Yes I know what it is, it was the creation of our .. Oh, Universe! LMAO! Sorry i'm at work being a tard again .. But yeah it was the creation of our universe through matter pulling towards itself or something getting so expansive and then exploding outwards creating the *Universe. But even still, where did that matter come from to begin with? It CAN'T "just" Exist.

Personally, I think the universe was created simply to be created and keep whatever created it some company. What happened all those millions and billions of years ago is way too complicated to truly comprehend. Maybe evidence will some day surface and we'll be able to make a more educated guess and understanding of it.

Basically, K_A made a much more valid point than I could possibly make.

Yes I know what it is, it was the creation of our .. Oh, Universe! LMAO! Sorry i'm at work being a tard again .. But yeah it was the creation of our universe through matter pulling towards itself or something getting so expansive and then exploding outwards creating the *Universe. But even still, where did that matter come from to begin with? It CAN'T "just" Exist.

Well that's a pretty big mix up. There is no evidence, as far as I know, as to the existance of other universes, so there aren't (as far as we know) any universes moving away from us.

Plus, I think the word universes is pretty much all encompasing, so I don't think there could really be anymore, if anything they would just be an extention of ours and our universe would just be bigger.

Well that's a pretty big mix up. There is no evidence, as far as I know, as to the existance of other universes, so there aren't (as far as we know) any universes moving away from us. Plus, I think the word universes is pretty much all encompasing, so I don't think there could really be anymore, if anything they would just be an extention of ours and our universe would just be bigger.

Latest physics would say otherwise. Main stream physics now through string and I think it's "M" theory say there's infinite universes and that's possibly why gravity's so weak (it leaks to the others). Supposedly the math works out that way and that our matter was created by a collison of universes or something like that.

I'd read somewhere that a black hole from another universe may have introduced the needed matter into this universe, but as others have said, we just don't have the ability to learn much more about things at the moment.

How would a black hole introduce matter? If anything, it would steal it.

I forgot to add the part where it manifested as a White Hole in our universe. Stupid work and distracting me.

I believe in a greater being than us (god) for several reasons.. which I really don't feel like getting blasted by Mj since he makes very good arguments, but what I find very interesting is:

1. How perfect the earth is, how it recycles everything, etc.
2. How perfect an organism is.
3. How complicated even the human eye is
4. How complicated the Human brain is

To me, I just don't see how we could of evolved into that amount of complicated phenomena...

My response will most likely be done this weekend. Sorry to keep this dragging on, I'm just short of time at the moment.

I believe in a greater being than us (god) for several reasons.. which I really don't feel like getting blasted by Mj since he makes very good arguments, but what I find very interesting is: 1. How perfect the earth is, how it recycles everything, etc. 2. How perfect an organism is. 3. How complicated even the human eye is 4. How complicated the Human brain is To me, I just don't see how we could of evolved into that amount of complicated phenomena...

It is pretty hard to get your mind around, that's for sure.

Gahh! I need more time to type up a proper response. I was looking forward to this thread. :-\

I believe in a greater being than us (god) for several reasons.. which I really don't feel like getting blasted by Mj since he makes very good arguments, but what I find very interesting is: 1. How perfect the earth is, how it recycles everything, etc. 2. How perfect an organism is. 3. How complicated even the human eye is 4. How complicated the Human brain is To me, I just don't see how we could of evolved into that amount of complicated phenomena...

1. It isn't all recycled. Ever heard of Alchemy? In order to obtain anything you MUST give something of equal value. The fact that many things give more or less than they obtain shows that everything isn't "recycled" and that much is wasted even among nature.
2. Nothing is perfect because perfect is a label just like evil and good thus the standard is ever changing.
3. The human eye is trash compared to other eyes and it's not really as complicated as people think.
4. The human brain is the same as the human eye. It's not that complicated. Of course the word complicated is like the word perfect. A label we use thats standards are ever changing.

Now for a mind blowing theory. What if this being people beileve in is actually multiple beings? Like a swarm of Gnomes or Lizards that exist on a plane of time so different than our own that they are the tool using race rather than humans, and that they decided to simply fuck around? Or what if it's a terrorist attempt to cause us to kill ourselves so they can come in and take over when we obliterate ourselves? OR maybe it's just a flying invisible hand like in Black and White that messes around with shit and is being controlled by these beings because we are really just one complex video game that they play on a daily basis? Your "supreme being" or "supreme powers" are much to full of holes for everyone to simply accept blindly. Just like other theories.

1. It isn't all recycled. Ever heard of Alchemy? In order to obtain anything you MUST give something of equal value. The fact that many things give more or less than they obtain shows that everything isn't "recycled" and that much is wasted even among nature.

You should check out this idea called "Mass-Energy Equivalence".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass-energy_equivalence

Short version: Nothing is wasted or destroyed, it merely changes form.

2. Nothing is perfect because perfect is a label just like evil and good thus the standard is ever changing.

I think he meant how well everything works together in an organism, but you can be obstinately technical.

3. The human eye is trash compared to other eyes and it's not really as complicated as people think.

That's one reason he used it as an example, he's saying that complicated organs and such having evolved like that purely by chance is pretty unbelievable.

4. The human brain is the same as the human eye. It's not that complicated. Of course the word complicated is like the word perfect. A label we use thats standards are ever changing.

I'm sure if you could share your complete and detailed mapping of the human brain, the scientific community would love to see it.

Now for a mind blowing theory. What if this being people beileve in is actually multiple beings? Like a swarm of Gnomes or Lizards that exist on a plane of time so different than our own that they are the tool using race rather than humans, and that they decided to simply fuck around? Or what if it's a terrorist attempt to cause us to kill ourselves so they can come in and take over when we obliterate ourselves? OR maybe it's just a flying invisible hand like in Black and White that messes around with shit and is being controlled by these beings because we are really just one complex video game that they play on a daily basis? Your "supreme being" or "supreme powers" are much to full of holes for everyone to simply accept blindly. Just like other theories.

Most children have already thought of these "theories", and they weren't exactly mind-blowing then.

You should check out this idea called "Mass-Energy Equivalence". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass-energy_equivalence Short version: Nothing is wasted or destroyed, it merely changes form. I think he meant how well everything works together in an organism, but you can be obstinately technical. That's one reason he used it as an example, he's saying that complicated organs and such having evolved like that purely by chance is pretty unbelievable. I'm sure if you could share your complete and detailed mapping of the human brain, the scientific community would love to see it. Most children have already thought of these "theories", and they weren't exactly mind-blowing then.

1.If you can find a use for what we call waste then I will concede that point but I doubt you can.

2. Last time I checked organisms didn't work so well. In fact that's why they have so many problems.

3. According to any theory nothing was random it was an intentional change in an attempt to adapt.

4. Do I need to? Last night a Neurologist did it and many others did it before he did.


Children do not think of things like that and if they did then that goes to show you that my way deals less psychological damage then yours does. That would be Pragmatist and yours is uhm what? Dirty Ass Kissing Butt Bitch to something that can't even defend itself? Oh Yeah! Those are called Deists!

1.If you can find a use for what we call waste then I will concede that point but I doubt you can.

What do you consider waste? The way you were talking you make it sound like in Alchemy and everything you get a 100% conversion ratio, which is impossible to our current knowledge, just like a frictionless surface. Waste is at minimum generated as heat in any chemical reaction.

2. Last time I checked organisms didn't work so well. In fact that's why they have so many problems.

You just redefined 'oblivious' as well as 'ungrateful'. Wow.

3. According to any theory nothing was random it was an intentional change in an attempt to adapt.

/sigh You missed the point again. He's saying that the human eye alone is too complicated for it to have evolved naturally in his opinion, and thus thinks that God designed it.

4. Do I need to? Last night a Neurologist did it and many others did it before he did.

We only know the most basic information on how the human brain works, we still have NO clue about anything beyond the basic functions of it, especially concerning higher consciousness. I guess I should have made it more obvious that the map I requested would be similar to the map that may eventually be known about the human genome (meaning a complete map of all functions and more).

Children do not think of things like that and if they did then that goes to show you that my way deals less psychological damage then yours does. That would be Pragmatist and yours is uhm what? Dirty Ass Kissing Butt Bitch to something that can't even defend itself? Oh Yeah! Those are called Deists!

Children with imaginations do. I thought of a lot of those kinds of things before I entered Junior High School, and your statement about pragmatism and whatever doesn't appear to be in coherent english, but I can only assume you're trying to insult me. Please do so coherently if you're trying to make someone other than yourself look stupid.