The Chatholic Church: Gender Control

They don't try to control people, not any more at least. I've never felt controlled. In the case of silencing truth, however, you are partially right. There are some churches where the clergy is so corrput that it will not even allow their own priests to speak what they believe to be truth. What men make the church out to be, and what Catholicism is essentially about are two completely different things.

I have to respectfully disagree. The Catholic Church is all about controlling people. That is the very basis of just about any religion. You are given guidelines in order to govern your behavior. Be it not to use birth control, to confess, or whatever, controlling people is essentially what most of the religions we surround ourselves are built on.

Not only do they control people covertly, but they (the catholic church) openly threaten with excommunication. If you're a female and trying to be a priest, you'll be excommunicated. How can you, in good conscious, support a group of people that oppress your very sex? Why are males more holy or what the fuck ever?

I have to respectfully disagree. The Catholic Church is all about controlling people. That is the very basis of just about any religion. You are given guidelines in order to govern your behavior. Be it not to use birth control, to confess, or whatever, controlling people is essentially what most of the religions we surround ourselves are built on.

It's not really control because followers are not forced to believe in Catholicism. I have the choice to leave, but I don't want to.

Not only do they control people covertly, but they (the catholic church) openly threaten with excommunication. If you're a female and trying to be a priest, you'll be excommunicated. How can you, in good conscious, support a group of people that oppress your very sex? Why are males more holy or what the fuck ever?

excommunication is only applied when the most grievous offences are committed. It is a seperation that a person wholly and completely chooses. Males are not more holy. It's simply that a woman has a different role than a man. In the older days, in the jewish temple, women were not even allowed to enter into the sanctuary. Christ bestowed priesthood on men and, so, it is not a woman's place to be ordained.

It's not really control because followers are not forced to believe in Catholicism. I have the choice to leave, but I don't want to. excommunication is only applied when the most grievous offences are committed. It is a seperation that a person wholly and completely chooses. Males are not more holy. It's simply that a woman has a different role than a man. In the older days, in the jewish temple, women were not even allowed to enter into the sanctuary. Christ bestowed priesthood on men and, so, it is not a woman's place to be ordained.

I thought you were tolerable before. Now I simply can't stand you. How could you willingly let your sex be oppressed because your religion "says so"?

I thought you were tolerable before. Now I simply can't stand you. How could you willingly let your sex be oppressed because your religion "says so"?

Well, that is a shame. I had a feeling that my defending catholicism would lead to people disliking me.
In defense for myself, women are not oppressed, I don't see how them not becoming priests is oppression in any way.

The female sex were the downfall of several Biblical heroes and have been subjected to (widely accepted) gender-role subjugation throughout history until the last century, I don't see how you can claim the oppression is a lie without plugging your ears and closing your eyes.

Churches treating males and females so differently just reeks of 'Seperate But Equal' and we all know how well that works out.

Edit: I suppose I'm technically Agnostic, but for all the hate regarding 'LOLBIGBANG' vs 'LOLINTELLIGENTDESIGN', most people forget that the Big Bang theory was an attempt to imagine how things could have come about without the divine, not intended to be a foolproof theory. It's entirely likely that any explanation regarding the beginning of things is beyond the scope of human comprehension, especially with our limited understanding of how things work.

The female sex were the downfall of several Biblical heroes and have been subjected to (widely accepted) gender-role subjugation throughout history until the last century, I don't see how you can claim the oppression is a lie without plugging your ears and closing your eyes. Churches treating males and females so differently just reeks of 'Seperate But Equal' and we all know how well that works out. Edit: I suppose I'm technically Agnostic, but for all the hate regarding 'LOLBIGBANG' vs 'LOLINTELLIGENTDESIGN', most people forget that the Big Bang theory was an attempt to imagine how things could have come about without the divine, not intended to be a foolproof theory. It's entirely likely that any explanation regarding the beginning of things is beyond the scope of human comprehension, especially with our limited understanding of how things work.

I agree completely. I just cannot imagine how you can't see the oppression of women in religion unless you're making yourself oblivious to it.

I don't see how you can claim the oppression is a lie without plugging your ears and closing your eyes.

I really don't understand why you think women are oppressed in the church. We aren't allowed to become priests because Jesus chose men to do that job. Women have different roles. We are equal to men but we are not the same as them. Men and women were designed differently to do the things that we were specifically designed to do.

I really don't understand why you think women are oppressed in the church. We aren't allowed to become priests because Jesus chose men to do that job. Women have different roles. We are equal to men but we are not the same as them. Men and women were designed differently to do the things that we were specifically designed to do.

What exactly is different about how men were designed that makes them not only better suited, but the ONLY ones suited to be priests?

What's different about women that makes them unable to do it?

Are you really so blind to think that your church thinks that women are EQUAL to men? Let me open your eyes a bit.

I don't expect you to read all of these, but I'm going to make a nice big list for you. I would love it if you DID read all of them and attempt to dispute them, if you can. Unfortunately, I think you enjoy being oblivious to the truth. Don't worry, though, I'm not going to use anything but quotes from the very book that your religion is based on: The Bible.

To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning." "No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square." 3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them." 6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."

Even after this, he was spared from the destruction of the city, because he's such an honorable man (hah.)

The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, whose names were Shiphrah and Puah, 16 "When you help the Hebrew women in childbirth and observe them on the delivery stool, if it is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, let her live."

He said this because he felt that the boys were a threat but the girls were insignificant and could do nothing to threaten his kingdom.


Here's one from the 10th commandment, which I'm sure you know very well as a religious person:

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Let's analyze: What's listed? House, wife, manservant(male slave), female servant(slave), ox, ass, or anything else that belongs to him. Notice how these are all regarded as PROPERTIES. The Tenth Commandment ITSELF implies that women are the property of their husbands.

"If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do.

This one is a gem. Not only does it say that a man can sell his daughter as a servant, but that she doesn't go free (after the 6 years that a man has to wait to go free) like manservants do.

16 "If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. 17 If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins.

It's important to note that the first 17 verses of chapter 22 of Exodus address restitution for stealing or damaging someone elses property. The basic point of these two verses is that if a man sleeps with a father's virgin daughter, the man has to pay the father for the "damage" to his property. The damage to the property is the fact that the man took the virginity of the daughter, meaning she's worth less (since the father cannot sell her virginity to her future husband that would be decided by the father.) On top of all this, the man must marry the daughter, regardless of what she wants, unless the father refuses.

1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Say to the Israelites: 'A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. 3 On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised. 4 Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over. 5 If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding.

This one is pretty self-explainatory. I suppose giving birth to a girl makes a woman more impure than giving birth to a boy? That's odd, since men and women are supposed to be equal.

Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her.

And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

These all have to do with adultery. Notice how not a single one refers to the fact that the man is doing any wrong to his own wife, only that he is doing wrong to the husband of the woman he is sleeping with. Adultery was defined as a man sleeping with a married woman or a woman engaged to be married. If a man were to sleep with an unmarried woman, he did no wrong to his wife. Married men were free to visit prostitutes.

"And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver."

So a girl is worth less than a boy. But surely this must be wrong! Your church thinks men and women are equal, right?

Numbers 5:11-31 describes a lengthy magical ritual that women were forced to perform if their husbands suspected them of having had an affair. A priest prepared a potion composed of holy water mixed with sweepings from the floor of the tabernacle. He proclaimed a curse over the potion and required the woman to drink it. If she were guilty, she would suffer greatly: her abdomen would swell and her thighs waste away. There is no similar magical test for husbands suspecting of having an affair with another woman.

8 "Say to the Israelites, 'If a man dies and leaves no son, turn his inheritance over to his daughter. 9 If he has no daughter, give his inheritance to his brothers. 10 If he has no brothers, give his inheritance to his father's brothers. 11 If his father had no brothers, give his inheritance to the nearest relative in his clan, that he may possess it. This is to be a legal requirement for the Israelites, as the LORD commanded Moses.' "

Looks to me like women are pretty much fucked in this scenario, with the exception of a daughter with no brothers.

10 When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife.

Equality, huh? Doesn't sound like she has any sort of choice.

13 If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, "I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity," 15 then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. 16 The girl's father will say to the elders, "I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity." Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver [a] and give them to the girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives. 20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.

So if a girl is not a virgin when married, she's killed. I challenge you to find such a law for men. I assure you, it doesn't exist.

"If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife...."

So if a virgin girl is raped, she must marry her rapist, regardless of what she wants.

1 If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house...

Divorce could only be initiated by the husband. The wife could not divorce her husband, even if he wanted to. Sounds to me like she's his property.

16 That evening an old man from the hill country of Ephraim, who was living in Gibeah (the men of the place were Benjamites), came in from his work in the fields. 17 When he looked and saw the traveler in the city square, the old man asked, "Where are you going? Where did you come from?" 18 He answered, "We are on our way from Bethlehem in Judah to a remote area in the hill country of Ephraim where I live. I have been to Bethlehem in Judah and now I am going to the house of the LORD. No one has taken me into his house. 19 We have both straw and fodder for our donkeys and bread and wine for ourselves your servants—me, your maidservant, and the young man with us. We don't need anything." 20 "You are welcome at my house," the old man said. "Let me supply whatever you need. Only don't spend the night in the square." 21 So he took him into his house and fed his donkeys. After they had washed their feet, they had something to eat and drink. 22 While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him." 23 The owner of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends, don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this disgraceful thing. 24 Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But to this man, don't do such a disgraceful thing." 25 But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. 26 At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. 27 When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. 28 He said to her, "Get up; let's go." But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home. 29 When he reached home, he took a knife and cut up his concubine, limb by limb, into twelve parts and sent them into all the areas of Israel. 30 Everyone who saw it said, "Such a thing has never been seen or done, not since the day the Israelites came up out of Egypt. Think about it! Consider it! Tell us what to do!"

Another self-explainatory one. Also quite disgusting.

3Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Doesn't get any clearer than that.

7A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.

Clear as crystal, just like the last one.

34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

How dare you speak in church, wench!

22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

I'll admit, I'm getting tired of basically copying the same thing over and over, but hopefully I'm proving my point. This is a recurring theme in your religion, regardless of whether or not you see it.

11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved[b] through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

This is a pretty clear one as well, however it also refers to women being priests. It basically says that women shouldn't be priests because Eve was decieved by the snake and Adam was not. So basically, women are susceptable to sin. I guess they think men are better? Maybe molesting little boys isn't a sin.

7Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

The weaker partner.

4Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.

"They" is referring to the older women. This says that the older women can teach the younger women to do all of those things, including to be subject to their husbands.





I guess that will be all for now. I've spent like 3 hours now doing this, and I think this is more than enough to open your eyes, assuming that's possible. At the very least, dispute it. I'd rather not feel like my time was wasted.

Actually, I feel like doing a little bit of summarization and drawing a few conclusions. However, I'm going to just do it in this post, since the last one is already monsterous.

Have you ever wondered why these things are part of your religion? Why does God look down on women like that?

The answer, in my opinion, is because God isn't the one writing. Men wrote the bible. Men teach and taught the sermons. Women, a lot of times, weren't even ALLOWED TO LEARN about the bible. I kid you not. Isn't it obvious that this is simply a case of the people in power keeping it that way? The men say "well God says so, it's right here in the bible! He says we're superior to you." This keeps them in power, so that they can maintain control over women.

Perhaps that's why women often weren't allowed to read about the bible? Perhaps that's why women aren't allowed to be priests? There's no logical reason for "God" to desire those things. Men desire those things. This allows and allowed men to be free to do whatever they wanted. They could sleep around, they could kill, they could treat "their women" however they wanted and get away with it. However, women weren't given the same freedom.

Now, I'm not saying that things are as bad now as they were back then. I'm just saying, this is a VERY STRONG theme in the Bible. I don't see how you could possibly have read the bible and not seen it.

Anyway, I'll be awaiting your response.

Thanks for doing what I was entirely to lazy to do.

Edit: Some of that was actually even worse than I thought. I may have to pick up a Bible now...

Actually, I feel like doing a little bit of summarization and drawing a few conclusions. However, I'm going to just do it in this post, since the last one is already monsterous. Have you ever wondered why these things are part of your religion? Why does God look down on women like that? The answer, in my opinion, is because God isn't the one writing. Men wrote the bible. Men teach and taught the sermons. Women, a lot of times, weren't even ALLOWED TO LEARN about the bible. I kid you not. Isn't it obvious that this is simply a case of the people in power keeping it that way? The men say "well God says so, it's right here in the bible! He says we're superior to you." This keeps them in power, so that they can maintain control over women. Perhaps that's why women often weren't allowed to read about the bible? Perhaps that's why women aren't allowed to be priests? There's no logical reason for "God" to desire those things. Men desire those things. This allows and allowed men to be free to do whatever they wanted. They could sleep around, they could kill, they could treat "their women" however they wanted and get away with it. However, women weren't given the same freedom. Now, I'm not saying that things are as bad now as they were back then. I'm just saying, this is a VERY STRONG theme in the Bible. I don't see how you could possibly have read the bible and not seen it. Anyway, I'll be awaiting your response.

!k_a!your wrong about that men wrote the bible theres a coulpe of books in it they are ruth and ezra

Ezra, the male Jewish preistly scribe fellow who led 5000 Israelites to someplace or other, yes?

Sure you're not thinking about "Esther"? Last time I looked, that was a female name.

soryy ii couldnt find the right book in the bible

!k_a!your wrong about that men wrote the bible theres a coulpe of books in it they are ruth and ezra

There's no proof at all that either of those books were written by women. It seems to be widely accepted that Mordecai wrote the book of Esther, and Samuel wrote the book of Ruth. The authors of both of them are unknown, though.

Either way, the rest of the books are either of unknown authorship or are written by men. It is within these books that the treatment of women by Christianity is established.

A book written by men tells you that Christ bestowed the Priesthood upon women only. Don't fool yourself into believing all of that is the true, unadultered word of God. I'm not saying the bible isn't a great literary piece and, for the most part, has a lot of good wisdom to it. However, the ignorance it also spreads is retarded.

As I mentioned in another thread, the ignorance it spreads is a primary objective.

Hey !King_Amazon! I just wanted to let you know that I have read all of your passages from the bible and I am going to respond to them as soon as i can. i have been without internet for awhile so, bear with me.

I've read through a bit of what everyone said.

I Highly dislike ANY gender separation. Infact, I dislike people says men are better physically but not mentally. I think we're all equal in all areas, but have been somewhat "brainwashed" so our bodies do not meet the state they can.

As for the controlling thing, I agree. I think many beliefs are too controlling over people, again, female in particular. I had a friend a while back, she was Muslim. Her belief did not allow her to date anyone, period, and she would have an arranged marriage. She highly disliked this, being born in the US where almost everyone was dating, and free to choose the life they wanted almost completely. (infact, we secretly dated for a few months.)

Basically, what I'm saying is People should do what they want, without control. That is, my belief at least. "Do what you want, as long as it is Just and Not cruel."

Hey !King_Amazon! I just wanted to let you know that I have read all of your passages from the bible and I am going to respond to them as soon as i can. i have been without internet for awhile so, bear with me.

That's cool. Even if you don't respond, I'm glad you at least read them.

I gotta admit some of the things I read in the bible (back when I read it) disappointed me greatly. I also contested a man once which is a story I will now tell you in hopes you do not become as weak as he.

It was in the spring of 1995 and we lived in Salem. Ironically we lived on Church Street. Anyways this missionary came to our house and I opened the door. The man obviously tried to fast talk me thinking "Gee this kid must be stupid since his familly is poor." However I started asking question and would not let up. Here are those questions that day along with his dialouge.

Priest: "Hello there. We are spreading the word of God you *WILL* learn with us this Sunday."

Statement rather than question don't you agree?

Richard: "No I think Church is a waste of time."

Priest: "(Prays and starts making a scene.)

Richard: "What are you doing?"

Priest: "Praying to God to save your soul."

Richard: "How do you know that I even have a soul? How do you know this precious God of yours exists? And who the hell said you can pray for me? You are not my better."

Priest: "But God says I am your better."

SHAZAM there it is in white and black. Older men are "The Best" no one may contest what they say and I will prove this as I go on just read through this and keep an eye open it will be the reoccuring theme. Yes I wrote down everything that was said that day since I had a terrible penmanship and was practicing by writing anything I could down for months.

Richard: "Once again I ask who is this God you fear so much?"

Priest: "I do not fear Him as he watches over me."

Richard: "Even when you have sex, shit, piss, and masturbate?" (Yes I really said that.)

Priest: "Such vulgar language from a child your parents have done a terrible job!"

Richard: "Not as bad as you for having your child there dressed up in such a hot day and not letting her have any water."

Priest: "God will take care of him do not worry he takes care of us all."

Richard: "Who is God final chance to answer old man."

Priest: "(Once again prays this time getting up he answers) Now you should know as I have prayed for it to be revealed to you and I know that you will now be blessed with knowledge beyond this world."

Richard: "I still don't know who or what you are talking about and how do you know without a doubt and infallibly that there is another world? What is it's name and what is the race that lives there?"

Priest: "I am talking about God's kingdom child."

Richard: "Okay so I finally gleemed from that sentence that this God is a person. But what is his name? Who is he? How do you beyond any reasonable doubt have proof he exists?"

Priest: "Through prayer it has been revealed to me."

Richard: "Answer my questions this is the last time I ask. Afterwards depending on your answers I might not kick you in the balls and scream rape.(Yes I had anger problems back then and still do when it comes to stupid people.) Who is God? How do you KNOW without a doubt he exists? Where is this Kingdom in this modern world? Why do you think that asking the air for answers will get you those answers and can you prove anything you say is true?"

Priest: "Because *I* have been told so by Him."

Richard: "Word of mouth isn't much to go by. Unless your daughter wants to say something to support it?"

His daughter suddenly was frightened greatly. I knew something was wrong with this man and I was only 7 years old at the time.

Priest (Suddenly angry): "It is not this whores place to answer questions of man! Hit her now!"

Yes he asked me to hit her. At this point I decided to kick him in the balls and scream rape. After which the cops were eventually called now beyond writing no one thought I had proof. However I also recorded visits from people as my mother usually asked my sisters and I to do. After examining the evidence my parents were able to sue for mental damage and the damage he did to the door trying to break it down. As well his daughter was taken from him. The moment he asked me to hit her *I* *KNEW* this man was nothing more than crazy through both evidence and logic. Tell me can prayer bring evidence and logic? No. Because all prayer and meditation is is reflecting on your own descision. No matter what you will claim God told you the truth but in reality you only garnered your own biased choice towards the matter.

Another question I frequently ask is why God would desire ANY of HIS OWN creations to be treated like that. To date and I am now 20 I have gotten NO answer. In fact all you mooks do is get on your knees and "Pray" and make a dramatic scene.

The fact still remains that your religion which I have fought since I was 13 has gotten raped time and again by a mentally retarded young man who has anger issues. All I used was logic and evidence to do it too.

So I now ask you. Who is God and why on earth would a supposed omnipitent being want something so evil to happen?

Answer me or I will count this as another victory for the mentally retarded young man with anger problems. If your answer is not satisfactory I will ask again and again until you give me one.

EDIT: By Satisfactory I mean an answer of logic and evidence which should not be hard to garner ,should what you think is truth, to be fact.