Quarter-Finals! Magus vs. Raziel

Arena: Unhallowed Ground

In the Red Corner, the arcane tyrant, the master of the night, from Chrono Trigger: Magus!!!

And in the Blue Corner, the reaper of souls, the wrathful sevant of Kain, from Soul Reaver: Raziel!!!

The moon shines full, but is obscured by low-lying clouds and fog. The air is unnaturally damp, and the dark sorcerer, Magus waits, perched atop a crumbling stone crypt. He scans the scarred terrain, scythe in hand, waiting for his opponent. The demonic Raziel stalks through the cemetary's twisted Spectral Realm version. As he makes his way past the rows of upturned graves, he sees and senses an unusual amount of undead disturbance. He finds a willing corpse, and quickly forces himself from the ethereal plane and into the physical world. Within moments, the two combatants spot one-another, separated by only about 50 feet. Suddenly, the earth shudders, and as both warriors look around, startled by the shake, a legion of undead begins to claw it's way out of the graves and towards our combatants. There are mere moments before either fighter will be overcome by the army of zombies that have come to greet them. Will there be anything left when the carnage has subsided?

Well, magus would win this one easy. Well il basicly start by copy pasting what i posted in his first battle.

His Barrier Change Absorbs all elemental magic except the magic most recently used by himself (for example, if he uses a Fire attack, he's absorbing all elements exept Fire). His Physical damage is Very Good, He Counterattacks with either a Fire spell, a Water spell, a Lightning spell, or a Shadow spell(changing his Barrier). After being about half the combat his Magic Defense Raise lot ! The only Melee attack that can do more then Scartch him is a weapon made of pure good and used for pure good. His spell: Lightning, Ice, Fire Lightning 2, Ice 2 ,Fire 2 Magic Wall raise his magic def ! Barrier Change make him possible to damage with only 1 type of magic (absorb other type). Dark Bomb type: Shadow Damage (can be compared to a mini-ultima stronger then flare but little weaker then ultima) Dark Mist type: Shadow Damage. A little weaker then Dark Matter! Dark Matter type: Shadow Damage. his fav attack and strongest ! (Very Strong) Geyser Type: Magic damage and causes hp to gradually drop for all characters. With That Said !

Magus would win. Raziel wouldnt do much damage in melee and his glyph would be close to useless(Healing Magus). Magus is fast and has a good evasion. His helmet protect him from any status and he got a good def for started and like i said Raziel weapon wouldnt be a worry. He survived the Darkness. Has enought skills to teach a few trick to the Master Of War. It wont be 1 dark creature that will slow him

You're overlooking a few key elements, Kuja.

1. Magus has a good advantage with his changing elemental defense, but there's a hole in that plan. That particular trait doesn't include light-based magic, sound-based magic, force-based magic, air-based magic, earth-based magic or spirit-based magic. Only Lightning, Water, Ice, Fire and Shadow. All of these weapons and spells would cut right through Magus' defense.

The Material Reaver (spirit-based, Raziel's standard Reaver)
The Light Reaver (light-based, if powered up it can blind enemies)
The Air Reaver (air/force-based, if powered up it will knock an enemy down on every hit)
The Earth Reaver (it is the second most powerful Reaver that Raziel can use, and if powered up, it can hit multiple targets with a single strike)
The Force Glyph
The Earth Glyph
The Sound Glyph
The Blind Spell (Light Reaver Spell)
The Gust Spell (Air Reaver Spell)
The Quake Spell (Earth Reaver Spell)

The only Reaver that I will not allow is the Spirit Reaver, and that's because it is an end-game weapon, and Raziel would kill Magus in a single hit with it.

2. Magus has an extremely limited amount of MP to use. Darkmatter alone will only last him a few uses and then he'll be up shit-creek.

3. Magus is no slouch with melee combat, but he's nothing special either. His melee attacks do less damage than Chrono's, Ayla's, Robo's and Frog's, meaning that the only two characters that he's technically stronger than are Marle and Lucca. That's not saying much. Raziel specializes in melee combat, and is armed with weaponry and skills that far surpass those of Magus.

With those things in mind (along with the fact that I have beaten Defiance and now have a greater understanding of Raziel's powers) I don't really see how Magus could win.

His barrier change doesnt actualy absorb anything magic exept one thing. The only weakness it has is that he need to deactivate it to cast his strongest spell. Which make him lose a turn. He can reactivate his Barrier Change again by casting a fire, lightning or ice spell. But then again in this match he doesnt need to use his strongest spell. Or he could also get far away before removing his Barrier Change to cast his very strong spell.
So being earth, light or whatever. It would still be absorbed.
When you fight him he never run out of mana so he can cast spell as much as he want.

The Light Reaver (light-based, if powered up it can blind enemies)

His helmet protect him from any status. So no blind for Magus .

As for melee damage i dont see how he could manage to deal lot. With an evil sword. As the only reason for his weakness to the masamune in Chrono Trigger is because to survive the darkness he had to become completly dark. Leaving him vulnerable to a sword of good.


Note: Magus can be stronger then anyone in melee. He is already close to other but not as strong as Chrono, Ayla or Frog in normal. If equiped with his DoomSickle his attack Double when 1 ally is down and when both are down his attack triple. I guess it's almost some luck for Raziel that he doesnt have ally in this battle

Magus also can hover, if not fly, as seen when you dash in Chrono Trigger, which would offer a nice evasion and mobility advangate.

His barrier change doesnt actualy absorb anything magic exept one thing. The only weakness it has is that he need to deactivate it to cast his strongest spell. Which make him lose a turn. He can reactivate his Barrier Change again by casting a fire, lightning or ice spell. But then again in this match he doesnt need to use his strongest spell. Or he could also get far away before removing his Barrier Change to cast his very strong spell. So being earth, light or whatever. It would still be absorbed.

wait i thought that only one type of spell is allowed to damage magus in barrier change?
so like one turn only fire spells or another turn only ice spells and etc
being that you always know what barrier.. raziel would know too.. and im sure raziel could adapt quickly so he can inflict damage on magus

It's depending on spell he cast. If he cast fire it will turn to fire only, If ice well ice only and if lightning well you get the idea it would be lightning only. Considering that even if he adapt itwould still mean his use of magic attack would be futile. So far Raziel cant do much more then get owned.

Magus is incapable of casting any type of Earth, Light, Sonic, Force or Spirit spells, and that's because those types of magic dont' exist in Chrono Trigger. Therefore, he has no defense against them. The barrier change wouldn't work against those types of magic because Magus doesn't know those types of magic. The reason that Magus' elemental-change barrier works is because he knows spells from those five elemental schools.

As for the melee damage issue, Magus only had great defense against Chrono's attacks because his party used physical weapons. Raziel's Reaver is a spirit blade, and therefore doesn't adhere to the same rules as normal swords. Plus, the Soul Reaver is an inherently good weapon. It was forged to be the weapon of the vampire hero, it was forged to protect Nosgoth against the dark forces of the Hylden. Therefore, Magus automatically has a weakness against it.

I don't have a ton of time, so I'll get back to this tomorrow.

The barrier change of Magus isnt a protection against spell he know. It is a protection that absorb all magic energy and the only reason he isnt able to block/absorb the spell he cast is because if his barrier would the spell wouldnt be able to go out of the barrier and would actualy heal him. So Magus could keep his distance easily considering the size of the arena and his speed while he cast spell to destroy Raziel.

Edit:

Spirit based weapon are always magic based wich would render Raziel totaly useless even Robo laser spin are absorbed by the barrier of Magus so it would mean his barrier block anything not pure physical that isnt the same element of his barrier.

Edit:

Oh, and if your wondering. Sword that does damage from wrong element would heal too. Here is an example. If Crono use Ice Sword or Ice Swirl and Magus isnt at *Ice Only* Well it would heal him.

btw robo spin is shadow type

good references for techs:
http://www.ffextreme.com/ct/tech.php
http://www.square-haven.com/games/sn...ngle_techs.php

oh and it just crossed my mind..
how is "technique" and "spell" differentiated here?
would the only way to differentiate be entirely based on whether its elemental or physical?

Nah, it's not cause they are elem or not. Magic energy is based on concentration and use of the mind. Sword or whatever technique are based on concetration and use of the body. Even if the body doesnt attack itself it is the body and not the mind is used to create the attack.

Here a good example Crono Slash is created by concentration and use of the body/sword to attack and Crono Luminaire is an attack that is created by his mind.

If Crono does Fire Whirl his technique is still made by his body. The only reason he does elemental damage is because Lucca imbue Crono sword with fire. Here is another example if someone use a Lightning Sword. The sword technique remain technique. But the damage is magical unless it is a technological electricity.

so cartman farting fire would be a "technique".. unless someone like lucca ignited it with "magical" fire

how about abilities of those like jean grey or professor x or magneto or pyro from xmen?
whats seperating pyro's powers or the guy from fantastic four from a fire spell sent by magus?

If cartman farted and lighted it. It would be a technique that required technology/equipment (Lighter). If Lucca lighted it well it would be a little diff. the fart would be enchanced by the magic and it and it would steal be a technique. But what would make the damage ? The fart or the fire ?

Jean Grey, Professor X and Magneto have power related to psychic powers.

As for fantastic four i have no clue what that is. If i knew whatever that was i could tell you. Anyway, if you wanna discuss more about this subject you should make a new thread.

Spirit based weapon are always magic based wich would render Raziel totaly useless even Robo laser spin are absorbed by the barrier of Magus so it would mean his barrier block anything not pure physical that isnt the same element of his barrier.

Raziel's Wraith Blade is his own soul wrapped around his arm. It's not a magical weapon, because it doesn't use mana to sustain itself. It's an energy blade, not a magical one. There's no magic involved, it's pure spirit energy. Plus, in Legacy of Kain: Defiance, it's proven that the Soul Reaver in both physical and wraith forms is capable of destroying magical barriers, so Magus' elemental defense change would only last him a short while before Raziel had destroyed it entirely.

The barrier change of Magus isnt a protection against spell he know. It is a protection that absorb all magic energy and the only reason he isnt able to block/absorb the spell he cast is because if his barrier would the spell wouldnt be able to go out of the barrier and would actualy heal him.

That's entirely speculative. There are no Earth, Air, Force, Sonic, Light or Spirit spells in Chrono Trigger, therefore those types of magic don't even exist in the world that Magus comes from. That's like using rat poison against a completely alien form of life. His barrier wouldn't be able to absorb any of those types of spells because those types of magic don't exist where Magus comes from. How can you have a defense against something you've never encountered before?

Also, let's not forget that Magus' elemental change barrier disappears after he's lost half of his life. He's not going to be able to cast continuously while both fighting off zombies and evading Raziel. Half of his life will be gone rather quickly, and then he'll be shit out of luck in terms of elemental defense.

So Magus could keep his distance easily considering the size of the arena and his speed while he cast spell to destroy Raziel.

Raziel can freeze Magus in the air with TK and slam him right back into the ground if he wishes. His TK meter constantly regenerates, and it takes a lot of uses to deplete it entirely. If Raziel is capable of telekinetically controlling a creture as powerful as Janos Audron, who was possibly hundreds of thousands of years old when Raziel fought him, then he can do it to Magus. All he has to do is wait for Magus to begin casting a spell and then lock on and slam away.

Plus, it's was never shown that Magus is capable of flying and casting at the same time. All of his spells are area attack spells, not long-range spells, therefore he'd have to be close to Raziel and on the ground in order for them to have effect. Raziel doesn't need to be anywhere near Magus in order to defeat him. His TK grab and TK throw abilities all have incredible range, and if Magus lifts into the air, he'll be even more susceptible to TK manipulation.

Magus doesn't stand a chance. Raziel has elemental attacks and weaponry that Magus has no defense for, Magus' biggest advantage disappears halfway through the fight, and he has to be immobile to cast. He's as good as dead.

That's entirely speculative. There are no Earth, Air, Force, Sonic, Light or Spirit spells in Chrono Trigger, therefore those types of magic don't even exist in the world that Magus comes from. That's like using rat poison against a completely alien form of life. His barrier wouldn't be able to absorb any of those types of spells because those types of magic don't exist where Magus comes from. How can you have a defense against something you've never encountered before?

He doesnt protect against diff. type of element. His barrier absorb any magic energy that isnt of the type he casted. When a caster use the spell *Reflect* it reflect the magic no matter if you know it or not. Saying that the barrier wouldnt work against certain magic is like saying the Soul Reaver cannot break magic barrier because it never seen that one. Or that Raziel cant win because he doesnt have the masamune that frog wielded. Magus Barrier is not made against a few thing. Magus Barrier is made to absorb any magic energy even magic damage from weapon exept the one he cast so he can get a spell out of his barrier.

Also, let's not forget that Magus' elemental change barrier disappears after he's lost half of his life.

The barrier doesnt disapear because of life loss. It disapear when he *Risk Casting Strongest Spell*. He cannot sustain his barrier while casting his strongest attack and it is normal. He doesnt need to cast Dark Matter during this match he aint getting a challenge here.

He's not going to be able to cast continuously while both fighting off zombies and evading Raziel. Half of his life will be gone rather quickly, and then he'll be shit out of luck in terms of elemental defense.

magus is quite fast and he doesnt walk/run he float. He can move arround quite easily and much faster then Raziel. The Zombie would be dismantled in no time. He wouldnt even need to worry about them. As his spell hit every monster.

Raziel can freeze Magus in the air with TK and slam him right back into the ground if he wishes. His TK meter constantly regenerates, and it takes a lot of uses to deplete it entirely. If Raziel is capable of telekinetically controlling a creture as powerful as Janos Audron, who was possibly hundreds of thousands of years old when Raziel fought him, then he can do it to Magus. All he has to do is wait for Magus to begin casting a spell and then lock on and slam away.

It isnt because something is old that it is smart or resistant.
Anyway, Magus cannot lose control of his body. He is protected against all status by his helmet. TK is useless against him.

Plus, it's was never shown that Magus is capable of flying and casting at the same time. All of his spells are area attack spells, not long-range spells, therefore he'd have to be close to Raziel and on the ground in order for them to have effect. Raziel doesn't need to be anywhere near Magus in order to defeat him. His TK grab and TK throw abilities all have incredible range, and if Magus lifts into the air, he'll be even more susceptible to TK manipulation.

They are shown to take the whole battle field. Which is something very big. Also, his only spell that is point blank area effect is Lightning 2. Once he join your party he will move in middle to cast it. For other spell he wont! He aim them at the middle which mean he has a control of where the spell will hit on the battle field. No matter where he is he will be able to cast on his target. He might not be able to cast while moving but he doesnt need to stop for long to cast. Raziel does need to be in melee range as i already stated Magus is imune to all status. So his TK is useless.

Raziel has elemental attacks

Are absorbed

and weaponry that Magus has no defense

Even the Masamune alone was still no match for him and it was a weapon that he was weaker to! How could he be even weaker to Soul Reaver then he was to the Masamune!?

Magus' biggest advantage disappears halfway through the fight, and he has to be immobile to cast. He's as good as dead.

It actualy disapear when he *Risk Casting Strongest Attack*
He doesnt need to cast his strongest attack.

Raziel would be bothered by Zombie as well but even more considering he isnt has fast. He would need to kill them or he would have to get slowed down and take damage while zombie become in greater number on him slowing him till he stop and dealing more and more damage as the number grow. If he kill them he might end up losing the match because the blade will be arroused and that could lead to disaster for Raziel.

Magus can keep distance easily. They both have zombie after them but Magus is faster, float and has plenty spell to deal with unwanted crowd.

Raziel cant even do anything to Magus from range and from close range the damage is small (If by miracle he reach Magus). There is absolutly no possible way for Raziel to win.

TK isn't a "status effect." Both Raziel and Kain immune to all status ailments as well, and they are both susceptible to TK. Therefore, so is Magus.

Either way, the barrier wouldn't defend against Raziel's spells because they're not mana-based, they're soul-based. There's a difference. It's a completely different type of magic that Raziel is using. Magus' barrier wouldn't be able to defend against Raziel's Reaver or spells because his barrier reacts to mana energies, not soul energies. It's like having flood insurance on your car and then it gets blown up in a fire.

They are shown to take the whole battle field. Which is something very big. Also, his only spell that is point blank area effect is Lightning 2. Once he join your party he will move in middle to cast it. For other spell he wont! He aim them at the middle which mean he has a control of where the spell will hit on the battle field. No matter where he is he will be able to cast on his target.

Wrong. Magus needs to be engaged in melee distance combat in order to strike with Ice 2, Fire 2, Bolt 2, Dark Bomb, Dark Mist, Black Hole or Dakmatter. That's why he has to actually engage in up-close combat in order to cast spells. His spells may be ranged, but he has shown no ability to cast at great distance, only a maximum of 15 feet or so.

His barrier disintegrates entirely halfway through the battle, dude. It doesn't just deactivate for Darkmatter and then reactivate after he's done. Once his barrier disappears, it's gone for the rest of the fight. Plus, if he's sustaining a magical barrier the entire time, that requires concentration and focus. If he's severely wounded, he'll lose the ability to contiinue holding the barrier up.

So, to summarize, Magus' barrier is completely useless because it's a mana-based defense mechanism, and Raziel's spells are soul-based. TK works on Magus because both he and Raziel share the same immunities and none of those immunities include TK. Magus needs to be within a certain range of his opponent to attack, because he's never demonstrated an ability to cast at great distances. Magus' barrier dissipates due to severe injury because sustaining a magical barrier takes concentration and focus.

Oh, and in Defiance, the Reaver consuming Raziel is no longer a problem. Raziel figures out a way to feed the Reaver souls and keep it from draining himself. He uses the souls that he feeds to the Reaver to cast his Reaver Spells. No dice.

Magic is magic it isnt because it use soul or mana. The energy is magical it isnt the casting cost that he absorb it is the magical damage which including if a weapon does magical damage. So it would still absorb so all reaver element are kinda healer.

Raziel damage is still very low on Magus when he actualy doesnt heal him and even if Magus need to be at about 15 meter to cast his spell. I highly doubt Raziel can make it in time before Magus is gone again to gain distance. From what i read TK ability of Raziel are far from great (unlike Kain) and his main strenght are his elemental reavers (Which are working mostly as healer because of Magus Barrier) Raziel is suposed to be very evasive. Which is something good against melee attack mostly. Magus is very evasive too. Tossing Magus a little here and there wouldnt do damage to Magus. It would just be annoying a little.

Magus could stand still and get a beating and it would still not harm him much. Hell, the strongest Sword in Chrono Trigger (rainbow) is merly more then a scratcher on a critical hit and in here he got an armor even better and wear an helmet that is the strongest in the game to the exeption of ozzy pants that is cursed. Being said that Raziel wouldnt be able to harm Magus and the Zombie would probably not be able to do more then smell bad! There is no way Raziel can win. Magus could also equip a Prism Specs accessories making his physical damage do 50% more damages. (As if he wasnt already strong enought )

Magus says: Lavos was my only real challenge...

Either way, the barrier wouldn't defend against Raziel's spells because they're not mana-based, they're soul-based. There's a difference.

I would be highly obliged if you'd explain the entire theory of mana to me. If there is more than one theory, please explain them all. If there is no link between mana and any spiritual existance, then I will accept what you have said. However, the two seem very similar to me.

Magus is very evasive too. Tossing Magus a little here and there wouldnt do damage to Magus. It would just be annoying a little. Magus could stand still and get a beating and it would still not harm him much. Hell, the strongest Sword in Chrono Trigger (rainbow) is merly more then a scratcher on a critical hit and in here he got an armor even better and wear an helmet that is the strongest in the game to the exeption of ozzy pants that is cursed. Being said that Raziel wouldnt be able to harm Magus and the Zombie would probably not be able to do more then smell bad! There is no way Raziel can win. Magus could also equip a Prism Specs accessories making his physical damage do 50% more damages. (As if he wasnt already strong enought )

1. Aye, Magus is the most evasive character in Chrono Trigger by far.

2. I don't believe Magus would have the benefit of any accessory besides one specifically for him. It tends to fall into the same category as the Final Fantasy rule. I would say he could use a Gold Stud (75% MP Reduce to Cast), but very few others . However, this is just my view of it. In an earlier battle, I mentioned that he could have physical damage reduction from a safe helm, but that was only if he was able to equip it. I never recieved a response to this statement.

Because of this, I would assume that Magus has access to the following.

Armor: Gloom Cape, RavenArmor
Helm: OzziePants, Gloom Helm (Protection from Status Effects)
Accessories: Gold Stud (75%mp reduction), Magic Ring (+6 Magic), Flea Vest (+12 Magic Defense)

I say the Magic Ring for the same reason I say Gold Stud. Magus is the primary spellcasting force of the game. If anyone is suited for these items, it is him. Also, the Flea Vest is open to him because of the same reason OzziePants is open to him. Flea and Slash are Ozzie's... uh... bitches, and... well, if you've played the game, you'll know. Otherwise, just let it be.





Anyhow, after much deliberation, I would voice my thoughts on the barrier issue. I believe that the barrier would work against magic not seen in Chrono Trigger. The argument that it would not work because of a lack of existance (disregarding the nature of the barrier, I might add) of the type of spell is purely speculative. My thoughts, however, have some backing.

Magus is not the type of being to have some magic spells. He is adept in all forms of magic with dark magic as a specialty. If there was a character in the game who used Earth magic, then Magus would be adept in Earth magic as well. His barrier would guard against Earth magic. If Raziel were in Chrono Trigger, and he could use different categories of magic, then Magus would be able to cast those different categories of magic, and his barrier would work against those as well. Magus is only limited to the spells he possesses by the bounds of the game. If set in a larger, outside-the-game, atmosphere, he would be much more diverse in his magic abilities.

Therefore, I would have to believe that, even though he does not have access to other forms of magic in-game, his barrier would be effective against all forms of magic.

One Mooore Thing!!

I will also agree with Kuja on the issue of the barrier's dissapearance. Magus discards his barrier to cast the spell only because he decides to change his strategy. (This is, note, during a battle against three heroes, not one. So there is no reason for his current strategy to follow any previous ones.) He does not need to have high hit points in order to keep his barrier up. On the contrary actually, there is not one characater in Chrono Trigger that becomes weaker as hit points are depleted. Either the character becomes stronger (through spellcasting) or they are not effected. Because of this, I would not believe that Magus loses his barrier for any reason other than he chose to discard it.

One Mooore Thing!!

Now, that was good Gota love Jackie Chang Adventure!

Anyway back on topic. No matter what the casting cost is.
MP (Most RPG)
TP (Phantasy Star)
Gems (Soul Blazer)
FP (Mario Rpg)
Souls (Raziel and Kain Games)
Reg(UO)
And more...
If it's magic. It is magic.
Fire weapon
Ice weapon
Lightning weapon
and so on...
Are also doing magic damage.
Unless for fire weapon it would actualy be put in gas and lighted up with something none magical. Every now and then.
Or that the ice one would be in a pack of dry ice.
Or lightning would be working with duracell or something.

Well i dont think i need to make more example. Im sure everyone understood