The Chatholic Church: Gender Control

They don't try to control people, not any more at least. I've never felt controlled. In the case of silencing truth, however, you are partially right. There are some churches where the clergy is so corrput that it will not even allow their own priests to speak what they believe to be truth. What men make the church out to be, and what Catholicism is essentially about are two completely different things.

I have to respectfully disagree. The Catholic Church is all about controlling people. That is the very basis of just about any religion. You are given guidelines in order to govern your behavior. Be it not to use birth control, to confess, or whatever, controlling people is essentially what most of the religions we surround ourselves are built on.

Not only do they control people covertly, but they (the catholic church) openly threaten with excommunication. If you're a female and trying to be a priest, you'll be excommunicated. How can you, in good conscious, support a group of people that oppress your very sex? Why are males more holy or what the fuck ever?

I have to respectfully disagree. The Catholic Church is all about controlling people. That is the very basis of just about any religion. You are given guidelines in order to govern your behavior. Be it not to use birth control, to confess, or whatever, controlling people is essentially what most of the religions we surround ourselves are built on.

It's not really control because followers are not forced to believe in Catholicism. I have the choice to leave, but I don't want to.

Not only do they control people covertly, but they (the catholic church) openly threaten with excommunication. If you're a female and trying to be a priest, you'll be excommunicated. How can you, in good conscious, support a group of people that oppress your very sex? Why are males more holy or what the fuck ever?

excommunication is only applied when the most grievous offences are committed. It is a seperation that a person wholly and completely chooses. Males are not more holy. It's simply that a woman has a different role than a man. In the older days, in the jewish temple, women were not even allowed to enter into the sanctuary. Christ bestowed priesthood on men and, so, it is not a woman's place to be ordained.

It's not really control because followers are not forced to believe in Catholicism. I have the choice to leave, but I don't want to. excommunication is only applied when the most grievous offences are committed. It is a seperation that a person wholly and completely chooses. Males are not more holy. It's simply that a woman has a different role than a man. In the older days, in the jewish temple, women were not even allowed to enter into the sanctuary. Christ bestowed priesthood on men and, so, it is not a woman's place to be ordained.

I thought you were tolerable before. Now I simply can't stand you. How could you willingly let your sex be oppressed because your religion "says so"?

I thought you were tolerable before. Now I simply can't stand you. How could you willingly let your sex be oppressed because your religion "says so"?

Well, that is a shame. I had a feeling that my defending catholicism would lead to people disliking me.
In defense for myself, women are not oppressed, I don't see how them not becoming priests is oppression in any way.

The female sex were the downfall of several Biblical heroes and have been subjected to (widely accepted) gender-role subjugation throughout history until the last century, I don't see how you can claim the oppression is a lie without plugging your ears and closing your eyes.

Churches treating males and females so differently just reeks of 'Seperate But Equal' and we all know how well that works out.

Edit: I suppose I'm technically Agnostic, but for all the hate regarding 'LOLBIGBANG' vs 'LOLINTELLIGENTDESIGN', most people forget that the Big Bang theory was an attempt to imagine how things could have come about without the divine, not intended to be a foolproof theory. It's entirely likely that any explanation regarding the beginning of things is beyond the scope of human comprehension, especially with our limited understanding of how things work.

The female sex were the downfall of several Biblical heroes and have been subjected to (widely accepted) gender-role subjugation throughout history until the last century, I don't see how you can claim the oppression is a lie without plugging your ears and closing your eyes. Churches treating males and females so differently just reeks of 'Seperate But Equal' and we all know how well that works out. Edit: I suppose I'm technically Agnostic, but for all the hate regarding 'LOLBIGBANG' vs 'LOLINTELLIGENTDESIGN', most people forget that the Big Bang theory was an attempt to imagine how things could have come about without the divine, not intended to be a foolproof theory. It's entirely likely that any explanation regarding the beginning of things is beyond the scope of human comprehension, especially with our limited understanding of how things work.

I agree completely. I just cannot imagine how you can't see the oppression of women in religion unless you're making yourself oblivious to it.

I don't see how you can claim the oppression is a lie without plugging your ears and closing your eyes.

I really don't understand why you think women are oppressed in the church. We aren't allowed to become priests because Jesus chose men to do that job. Women have different roles. We are equal to men but we are not the same as them. Men and women were designed differently to do the things that we were specifically designed to do.

I thought you were tolerable before. Now I simply can't stand you. How could you willingly let your sex be oppressed because your religion "says so"?

Aren't you a supreme mod? It seems to me that as one, your biased opinions on her seem to be more of a detriment to this topic than most other posts regarding the matter. I've seen you do the same here http://zelaron.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46155

Your opinions are wrong.

(whole contents of his post)

I would expect that a Supreme Mod wouldn't be spamming in the Forum News and Discussion forum, Yawgmoth.

Then, you said this here http://zelaron.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46306

In the real reality, your facts are wrong.

(Same here, whole contents of your post)

It seems that this is the exact situation, different words. Don't we have a rule against treated new members badly? "I thought you were tolerable before. Now I simply can't stand you." Get over yourself, you pushed her away because she really can't defend herself here. All she's trying to do is defend her beliefs. What if I told you, with credible evidence, that air is oppressing men. Would you defend it saying it's never oppressed you?

I felt I'd stay out of it until she stopped wanting to come here. I may not agree with your or her feelings about the Catholic church in any way, but because she's a human being in control of her own opinions and her own life, I have to trust that when she says she doesn't feel controlled, then she isn't controlled.

It may not be what you believe, and it may turn out that it's true, but if she isn't oppressed and doesn't feel that women should be priestess's, then she's not and they shouldn't be.

God left the priesthood in the control of the Levites, more specifically in the hands of Aaron and his sons. It doesn't not say that the daughters of Aaron should have the authority, but the sons.

"How could you willingly let your sex be oppressed because your religion 'says so'"? This is nothing but an opinion and I think what I said above on her opinions shatters it's legitimacy.

and hotdog, I'll quote some stuff for you. It's not an answer to your question; you can have your victory if you want it.

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

And Moses said unto God, Behold, [when] I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What [is] his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Suffering often motivates people to seek God, and as they draw close to Him, they can understand Him better. Often people won't pay attention to God unless they're suffering and are acutely aware of their need for Him. Turning to God can open the door to strength, courage and miracles.

Aren't you a supreme mod? It seems to me that as one, your biased opinions on her seem to be more of a detriment to this topic than most other posts regarding the matter. I've seen you do the same here http://zelaron.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46155

I don't really understand what you mean. This is the opinion and debate forum. We were debating the topic. It's not like I was flaming her.

If anyone is biased here, it's you. If it had been any other member I was debating with, you never would have said a word. You're just jumping to the defense of your girl (which, while respectable, is still biased.)

It seems that this is the exact situation, different words. Don't we have a rule against treated new members badly? "I thought you were tolerable before. Now I simply can't stand you."

We have rules against treating new members badly in the Introduce Yourself forum. When they start expressing their beliefs in the way that she did, she's asking for a debate. Either way, debating with new members is not against the rules. A debate is a two-sided thing. She's completely free to not participate in it.

Either way, it's not your place to tell me the rules. If you think I'm breaking any rules, talk to Chruser or WetWired.

Get over yourself, you pushed her away because she really can't defend herself here. All she's trying to do is defend her beliefs. What if I told you, with credible evidence, that air is oppressing men. Would you defend it saying it's never oppressed you?

It's not my fault she's defending an undefendable position. What do you expect, that I simply not contest her views because there's no way she can defend them?

My goal is to educate. Your significant other seems to be somewhat blind to the oppression of her sex within the Catholic church, and Christianity/Religion in general. I've attempted to prove my point in a pretty professional manner (see LONG ASS POST on the first page.)

When you have credible evidence that air is oppressing men, we can address that situation. I would most likely believe you, depending on how credible your evidence was. The difference between that and this, though, is that your significant other not only doesn't believe there is any gender oppression, but she defends it as well, saying things such as "it's not a womans place to be in the priesthood" or whatever. She's clearly been taught to actually believe that bullshit, and I think it's disgusting. Quite honestly, I'm not so much disgusted by her as I am by her church. That's why I actually took the time to attempt to educate.

I felt I'd stay out of it until she stopped wanting to come here. I may not agree with your or her feelings about the Catholic church in any way, but because she's a human being in control of her own opinions and her own life, I have to trust that when she says she doesn't feel controlled, then she isn't controlled.

Or perhaps she has been taught that way.

Do you know how many people are unknowingly under the control of others in our world? Clever people can control others very easily. It's called manipulation. When a bunch of old men get together and decide to write a book about GOD "written by" GOD and preach that it was "written by" GOD and GOD says that men are better than women, that's called manipulation. A bunch of like-minded gentlemen basically had the most brilliant idea ever for forcing their ideals onto the masses.

It may not be what you believe, and it may turn out that it's true, but if she isn't oppressed and doesn't feel that women should be priestess's, then she's not and they shouldn't be.

In her opinion, which is based on what she has been taught by the priesthood.

God left the priesthood in the control of the Levites, more specifically in the hands of Aaron and his sons. It doesn't not say that the daughters of Aaron should have the authority, but the sons.

According to the Bible, which has questionable legitimacy. The Bible also says a lot of other insane nonsense, do you follow it as well?

"How could you willingly let your sex be oppressed because your religion 'says so'"? This is nothing but an opinion and I think what I said above on her opinions shatters it's legitimacy.

Of course it is an opinion. This is the OPINION AND DEBATE forum. No shit.

However, my opinion is backed up by quite a lot of information, specifically from the Bible itself. If you claim that the church doesn't oppress women, dispute my evidence.

Let me make it quick for you, though. You can't. The evidence I compiled in my long ass post is indisputable and undeniable. At the very least, if you're going to disagree, do it in a better way than "she doesn't feel oppressed so she isn't." As I stated above, plenty of people are under the control of others and do not realize it. It's called manipulation.

All I was attempting was to defend her, I don't have the time nor patience to actually dispute the topic.

But I will say this. You talk of being manipulated and how wrong it is. Ever heard that Satan's most cunning trick is convincing people that he doesn't exist?

What if you're wrong? You spend all this time convincing her to believe what you believe. Who's manipulating now?

she's a human being in control of her own opinions and her own life, I have to trust that when she says she doesn't feel controlled, then she isn't controlled.

Thankyou, dear. For defending me and all. It means a lot to me.

It's not my fault she's defending an undefendable position. What do you expect, that I simply not contest her views because there's no way she can defend them?

I'm going to try to defend it. I have a few quotes from the bible i can use. I just have to organize them.

A book written by men tells you that Christ bestowed the Priesthood upon women only. Don't fool yourself into believing all of that is the true, unadultered word of God. I'm not saying the bible isn't a great literary piece and, for the most part, has a lot of good wisdom to it. However, the ignorance it also spreads is retarded.

As I mentioned in another thread, the ignorance it spreads is a primary objective.

I've read through a bit of what everyone said.

I Highly dislike ANY gender separation. Infact, I dislike people says men are better physically but not mentally. I think we're all equal in all areas, but have been somewhat "brainwashed" so our bodies do not meet the state they can.

As for the controlling thing, I agree. I think many beliefs are too controlling over people, again, female in particular. I had a friend a while back, she was Muslim. Her belief did not allow her to date anyone, period, and she would have an arranged marriage. She highly disliked this, being born in the US where almost everyone was dating, and free to choose the life they wanted almost completely. (infact, we secretly dated for a few months.)

Basically, what I'm saying is People should do what they want, without control. That is, my belief at least. "Do what you want, as long as it is Just and Not cruel."