Quarter-Finals! Magus vs. Raziel

For the sake of simplification, I'm going to post what I think are the strongest arguments against Magus and for Raziel. After that, I'm done.

1. There is no concrete proof that Magus' barrier can absorb any of the following types of elemental attacks. Earth, Air, Force, Sonic, Light or Spirit. Raziel has attacks and spells of all of these varieties.

2. There is no concrete proof that Raziel's Wraith Blade is magical. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that standard attacks from Raziel will cut right through Magus' barrier.

3. Even if Raziel's Reaver can be considered a magical weapon, Magus still has an obvious defect in his barrier that alerts his opponent to his elemental weakness by doing nothing more than looking at him. Raziel has Reavers that match every elemental alighment except Lightning, and his Light Reaver could quite possibly be used to substitute.

4. I have posted a number of reasons as to why Magus' barrier might simply not work at all in this fight, due to lack of summoning materials and/or the fact that his barrier might not work at all outside of his castle.

5. Magus has no defense against Raziel's telekinetic powers, and can be tossed around at will. This eliminates Magus' advantage of flight and could very well substitute as a replacement for standard attacks at all, considering that Magus' physical defense barrier is only proven to work against weapons, and not all physical damage.

6. Magus has shown no ability to cast, attack, dodge, defend or do anything else while in the air. It is also a fact that Magus requires elaborate somatic components (movements) in order to cast his spells. TK manipulation would automatically render any spell of Magus' null, considering that he can't cast while in the air, and he obviously needs to be able to move his arms around in order to cast.

7. Magus' spells are all area-attack spells, some of which can be aimed, but only within close range. Magus has shown no ability to cast at great distance.

8. Raziel is the superior melee fighter, Kuja even admitted to it.

9. Magus cannot heal himself at all, unless Raziel is slow enough to do so for him accidentally by using the wrong element of spell. Raziel can shift into spectral at any time to restore his health.

10. If the Reaver is magical, then he can easily switch Reavers instantly, at any time, in order to accomodate Magus elemental weakness because obviously his weakness is visible to the naked eye. If the Reaver is not magical, it does standard damage, because the Reaver is an inherently heroic weapon and Magus has shown no ability to absorb the damage from non-magical energy weapons.

In conclusion, Magus doesn't stand a chance. Raziel is too versatile, and has too many advantages at his disposal.

Refer to http://www.zelaron.com/forums/showth...threadid=26012 where i show even more...

1. There is no concrete proof that Magus' barrier can absorb any of the following types of elemental attacks. Earth, Air, Force, Sonic, Light or Spirit. Raziel has attacks and spells of all of these varieties.

Refer to this thread http://www.zelaron.com/forums/showth...threadid=26012
There is even a picture that show when he has fire damage it say FIRE ONLY!! NO, OTHER SPELL WONT WORK!!! FIRE DAMAGE ONLY!!! IT DOES NOT SAY FIRE ONLY OR SPELL HE DOESNT HAVE!

2. There is no concrete proof that Raziel's Wraith Blade is magical. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that standard attacks from Raziel will cut right through Magus' barrier.

Refer again to this thread http://www.zelaron.com/forums/showth...threadid=26012
Yes there is. The Blade when it was physical was MAGICAL and you agreed. Now it is broken and part of Raziel. It doesnt do physical damage it is said to do elemental and non-elemental which is magical and i by refering the thread i posted a quote that is written in the script that it isnt physical.
Spiritual energy is also essence of magic itself...

3. Even if Raziel's Reaver can be considered a magical weapon, Magus still has an obvious defect in his barrier that alerts his opponent to his elemental weakness by doing nothing more than looking at him. Raziel has Reavers that match every elemental alighment except Lightning, and his Light Reaver could quite possibly be used to substitute.

Bloody hell, you like twisting definition it's actualy even sad.
The light that Raziel have is HOLY. NOT LIGHTNING. Technological light will not affect a vampire. Yet the light Raziel has is HOLY which PURIFY which is differant from a color that is PURE. It is said in the game you know it. A vampire will not be destroyed when fire light is near. But the sun light will destroy or hurt some vampire as the sun is considered as light that PURIFY and is consider HOLY.

4. I have posted a number of reasons as to why Magus' barrier might simply not work at all in this fight, due to lack of summoning materials and/or the fact that his barrier might not work at all outside of his castle.

Did your really play that game ? Cause if you remember correctly when you deal the 6666 damage to Magus he isnt even dead. It's just at the time that Lavos arrive because he was summoned. EVEN Magus say it. "I have not created Lavos i only summoned him"

5. Magus has no defense against Raziel's telekinetic powers, and can be tossed around at will. This eliminates Magus' advantage of flight and could very well substitute as a replacement for standard attacks at all, considering that Magus' physical defense barrier is only proven to work against weapons, and not all physical damage.

Again, wrong! Proven to work against physical damage. Show me where you saw that physical damage dealt from a non-weapon ignored his barrier. Your making things up. His TK pool isnt forever he cannot always do that and it will be doing close to if no damage at all.

6. Magus has shown no ability to cast, attack, dodge, defend or do anything else while in the air. It is also a fact that Magus requires elaborate somatic components (movements) in order to cast his spells. TK manipulation would automatically render any spell of Magus' null, considering that he can't cast while in the air, and he obviously needs to be able to move his arms around in order to cast.

The only thing that is proven is that he cannot maintain his flight while casting, defending or attacking. Not that if someone else hold him in air will prevent him from casting.

7. Magus' spells are all area-attack spells, some of which can be aimed, but only within close range. Magus has shown no ability to cast at great distance.

Magus spell cover the whole screen. Just like Megaman, Zero and Bass. We never see the limit of their attack so assuming that the limit stay there is not true. The lightning spell is the ONLY one where he move to cast it. So he can aim the other one in an area he see.

8. Raziel is the superior melee fighter, Kuja even admitted to it.

Yes, he is. But shitty damage wont cut it on Magus. He cannot be defeated with mere weapon. During the time he would be brought to half his hp with mere weapon he would have time to bring down his enemy several time.

9. Magus cannot heal himself at all, unless Raziel is slow enough to do so for him accidentally by using the wrong element of spell. Raziel can shift into spectral at any time to restore his health.

Raziel cant do jack against Magus. So he can heal all he want it wont change shit.

10. If the Reaver is magical, then he can easily switch Reavers instantly, at any time, in order to accomodate Magus elemental weakness because obviously his weakness is visible to the naked eye. If the Reaver is not magical, it does standard damage, because the Reaver is an inherently heroic weapon and Magus has shown no ability to absorb the damage from non-magical energy weapons.

Physical weapon including Masamune does shit damage on Magus. I have proven that it is magic. So it is absorbed and Raziel cannot do Lightning Damage.

In conclusion, Raziel doesn't stand a chance. Magus is too Strong, Evasive, Resistant and absorb quite a lot. He has too many advantages at his disposal. Magus cannot be killed by the masamune alone. What make you think that some rock will be more efficient then the masamune? I heard some impressive joke from you so far. But you sure worked that one.

Refer to http://www.zelaron.com/forums/showth...threadid=26012 for even more information.

i know this might be getting a little off topic but the claim that robo has no will of his own just does not sit right with me
first of all.. just because it is "said" in the game robo has no will.. does not mean that robo actually has no will of his own and that there is no possibility that robo could develop a will
does robo not have artificial intelligence and self consciousness? did robo not "feel" compassion.. going against the original intention of his creation? did not robo "choose" on his own his final action against his own brethren? who are you or lucca to even attempt to judge whether robo has a will of its own after such trials?

second off where does it actually say definitively that robo has no will of its own? lucca only stated that robots are not made evil.. but are instilled with evil by man. the same could be and is often said of humans.. havent you ever heard the saying that no man is born evil?

and robo spin attack is definitely magical in nature.. it deals shadow damage
i dont think there is any basis to say otherwise

and FFS could someone please definitively define wtf spells and magic and magical are? seriously there should at least be a fuxin bare bones definition to start with instead of all this mad speculation and propoganda

in reply to something brought to my attention in ct:

then ct is wrong in every imaginable way
http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?bo...ionary&va=will
i will not accept that a robot who shows compassion for fellow robots and compassion throughout the game can ever be considered to not "express desire, choice, willingness, consent, or in negative constructions refusal"
either they are the victim of horrendous ignorance.. or they are using a "japanglish" dictionary

and dealing shadow type damage should count as magic
if it can deal damage in a way exactly like spells cast by magus.. which are magic.. then i will treat them as equivalent
also to note that not all specials by robo are treated to deal shadow damage
i would take the dictionary out and rip this apart but evidently some people are using some weird version of the dictionary for definitions
id appreciate some enlightenment.. as i mentioned above

in reply to something brought to my attention in ct: then ct is wrong in every imaginable way http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?bo...ionary&va=will

You can program a robot to have compation. Not to feel it. Your not understanding the meaning of his not having a will. He doesnt make the choice. The programing does. They are not his his choice. They are the one of his program. Your just taking a word definition and not applying it to the situation...
You can already buy simple toy jap ppl make that show affection and adapt to situation. They do the stuff but they dont feel it. Some also are programed to have needs. They have a will of their own ? No. It's how they are programmed.

It is also said in the game.

if it can deal damage in a way exactly like spells cast by magus.. which are magic.. then i will treat them as equivalent

A lighter deal fire damage. Magic ? No.
Put a fork in a plug. Is it magic ? No. But you do feel electricity which is lightning damage.
The sun do holy damage to vampire. Magic? No.
Shall i go on ?


You can clearly see on this picture that it say Fire Only. Not Fire Magic Only.

in reply to something brought to my attention in ct: then ct is wrong in every imaginable way http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?bo...ionary&va=will You can program a robot to have compation. Not to feel it. Your not understanding the meaning of his not having a will. He doesnt make the choice. The programing does. They are not his his choice. They are the one of his program. Your just taking a word definition and not applying it to the situation... You can already buy simple toy jap ppl make that show affection and adapt to situation. They do the stuff but they dont feel it. Some also are programed to have needs. They have a will of their own ? No. It's how they are programmed. It is also said in the game.

and WHERE do you draw the line between the "programming" and the "feeling" it?
how the hell would lucca be able to program robo to go against all logical reasoning to defend his robot brethren to the death? and at the same time not to the point of betraying lucca?
besides it is still his "choice".. his "programming" is "choosing" it and his "programming" constitutes his AI and his thinking.. is that not constituting robos entire being itself?
cannot a persons thoughts and emotions not be considered and comparible to the "programming"?
where am i applying the definition wrong?

and WHERE do you draw the line between the "programming" and the "feeling" it? how the hell would lucca be able to program robo to go against all logical reasoning to defend his robot brethren to the death? and at the same time not to the point of betraying lucca? besides it is still his "choice".. his "programming" is "choosing" it and his "programming" constitutes his AI and his thinking.. is that not constituting robos entire being itself? cannot a persons thoughts and emotions not be considered and comparible to the "programming"? where am i applying the definition wrong?

Bloody hell, it is said in the game and it is how it is.

Why would it go against all logical reasoning ?
He is programed to react as a caring and compationate robot. To adapt to situation based on his programming. He protected his *brothers* because he was programmed to react as compation by Lucca. Those robot he fight just have as much of a will then Robo. Which is none. Lucca said it in a pretty clear manner and it is how it work and always is with robot. They do within the limit of their programming. Some web site alter their code in order to adapt themself to situation. They still have limitation just like Robo as and those web site do not have a will of their own. It's something really simple. Robo is just a bunch of 1 and 0.

http://faqs.ign.com/articles/432/432894p1.html
heres a good example..
when robo is forced to kill his former love brainwashed by mother brain

robo "chooses" to do the right thing
there is conflict of interests within robo's flow of thinking and at the end a "choice" for doing the right thing
that is undeniably an act of will

seriously though.. how is "love" going to not be an act of will by itself?

http://faqs.ign.com/articles/432/432894p1.html heres a good example.. when robo is forced to kill his former love brainwashed by mother brain robo "chooses" to do the right thing there is conflict of interests within robo's flow of thinking and at the end a "choice" for doing the right thing that is undeniably an act of will seriously though.. how is "love" going to not be an act of will by itself?

Jeez i feel like im repeating myself... You know what programing is ? When a program as 2 option and make a choice because of his programming? Web site that can actualy guess what your thinking about by answering question and they get better each time as they adapt. Those fucken jap toy that use to be a little thing where you have to take care or whatever of the little baby that been programed into some sort of watch. Those little dog they make that actualy simulate a need of affection and simulate the action of showing it. Do i really need to name everything that already exist to explain the coding of a techonology from years 2300 in chrono trigger ?

Marle is afraid of Lucca trying to fix robot as she say "It might attack us"
Lucca clearly say "I will make sure he cant"
"Robot are not evil. human make them that way"
Having a will make it possible for anyone to be good or bad.
Robo was programmed by Lucca to be good. It has no will of it's own.
remember also when Spekkio says that he is a huge toy ?
That Robo cannot have magic because he has no will ?

i think that part of the ct plot is a great big load of bs
m-w on will (the part that applies):
4 a : mental powers manifested as wishing, choosing, desiring, or intending b : a disposition to act according to principles or ends c : the collective desire of a group <the will of the people>
robo theoretically meets all of those ends and emulates enough human condition in all those scenarios to be comparable to that definition
but this is not really important here

i think that part of the ct plot is a great big load of bs m-w on will (the part that applies): 4 a : mental powers manifested as wishing, choosing, desiring, or intending b : a disposition to act according to principles or ends c : the collective desire of a group <the will of the people> robo theoretically meets all of those ends and emulates enough human condition in all those scenarios to be comparable to that definition but this is not really important here

Then you think machine are a great load of bs in ct and reality reality. Will, yes it is the description. But it does not fit robo. Robo is a toaster. He has no will. He does not chose. If Lucca decided she would have programed Robo in a Dancing Mofo or a Oven that is what it would be and Robo wouldnt have a say in it.

there are too many factors in the choices robo makes to be simply a linear "programmed" behavior
lucca could not have forseen and programmed in the choices and judgement involved in determining what to do in the conflict of brethren vs lucca or the right thing and his "loved" one.. could lucca hvae forseen "love?"
the intricate complexities that would be involved in emulating the involved behaviors would involve something of choice of its own and i dare say emotion

there are countless works of literature that whole heartedly tell a different tale in such matters of "toasters" having the possibility of the human condition

for ct to tell the world that a self-conscious intelligent robotic being does not have its own will in such definitiveness.. especially a robot making such prementioned choices is simply bs

She doesnt need to program every single question. She is a Genius machine builder. She can simply program a personality just like some fucken toy are given. You can see those crazy robots builder on tv. They program robot to learn to use their body and they learn to reconize their master and shit like that. It isnt a will of their own. They are programmed to see their creator as their master and to test their possible function. They end up keeping the program and changing the body so it learn to use another and learn to use the new one on it's own. They do not change the program as they change the body. They made the program to adapt itself. Robots has been programed to do what he does/did. He is a elaborate toaster.

Edit:

there are countless works of literature that whole heartedly tell a different tale in such matters of "toasters" having the possibility of the human condition Yes, yes, and there is probably a bunch of those ppl that think there some alien in their tv.

so basically you intend a mockery of those writers like Isaac Asimov and almost any sci-fi literature with androids and movies like A.I. and series like Star Trek and Twilight Zone and games like the Megaman series

so basically you intend a mockery of those writers like Isaac Asimov and almost any sci-fi literature with androids and movies like A.I. and series like Star Trek and Twilight Zone and games like the Megaman series

I think what your missing here is the meaning of sci-fi

A literary or cinematic genre in which fantasy, typically based on speculative scientific discoveries or developments, environmental changes, space travel, or life on other planets, forms part of the plot or background.

They are based on speculation and/or fantasy. Not facts. They are fantasy to make an interesting world. It is only to make ppl enjoy their time. Not to be something true. While it is entertaining i hope you realise that what you see isnt true and is most of the time based on speculation and not facts.

so basically you intend a mockery of those writers like Isaac Asimov and almost any sci-fi literature with androids and movies like A.I. and series like Star Trek and Twilight Zone and games like the Megaman series I think what your missing here is the meaning of sci-fi A literary or cinematic genre in which fantasy, typically based on speculative scientific discoveries or developments, environmental changes, space travel, or life on other planets, forms part of the plot or background. They are based on speculation and/or fantasy. Not facts. They are fantasy to make an interesting world. It is only to make ppl enjoy their time. Not to be something true. While it is entertaining i hope you realise that what you see isnt true and is most of the time based on speculation and not facts.

and when did i ever claim them to be facts?
but i dont agree that it is complete baseless speculation.. if someone were to ask asimov or other sci-fi authors if they thought androids who can think for themselves or even have some sort of emotions could easily become a reality.. i can almost guarentee they would say yes
authors who write vast novels on such subjects i seriously doubt write the novels thinking they have no applicance to the real world
even writers like vonnegut have had a share of displaying machines with emotions

Well i wont go on arguing if you cant understand the diff. with fiction and reality or real emotion and simulated one.

you are right
it is foolish for me to argue with someone too narrow minded to see that there is a thin line between what is simulated and what in turn can become a reality
and to argue with one who tries to dismiss the well known intellectual works of millions of brilliant minds as nothing but conjecture

I dunno what kind of stuff you been listening to on tv. But most of the stuff are based on a mixture of theory, fiction and fantasy. Your probably gonna tell me next that captain kurk told you so ? Im not dismissing the work of millions of brilliant mind. You probably just have the wrong idea about who are actual genius and as you been showing a few time already you seem to have the difficulty to put definition and situation together. I used to do programming and i can tell you that no matter how evolved my toaster is. It will stay a machine that will function on the parameter that it is given. Nothing more. If it need to be able to do many thing it will have some coding that will make modification to the code itself. When you play starcraft the computer doesnt have a will. Find me a scientist misguided enought to say the oposite and i will be able to have fun of him for years. When a computer as a problem. The solution often is always human based. It is the user or the coder fault. Not the maching.

ill take this into the flame forum thread.. its cluttering stuff up here and quickly hijacking this thread