AD(H)D Medications

How is that conditional, MJ? If someone's life is fucked up and they take meds to cope with that, that's not right. Like I said, that's just covering up the problem.

It's conditional on their situation. For instance, assume that my life is picture-perfect. I have a great girlfriend, enough money to pay for school, all A's, my parents are happy, everything is great. Yet I'm still depressed. Anti-depressants should do wonders for me. No behavioral therapy is needed, as my life is already fine. However, if anti-depressants make me content with deplorable living conditions then they certainly have a negative effect. In this case, behavioral therapy along with anti-depressants would be optimum.

It's conditional on their situation. For instance, assume that my life is picture-perfect. I have a great girlfriend, enough money to pay for school, all A's, my parents are happy, everything is great. Yet I'm still depressed. Anti-depressants should do wonders for me. No behavioral therapy is needed, as my life is already fine. However, if anti-depressants make me content with deplorable living conditions then they certainly have a negative effect. In this case, behavioral therapy along with anti-depressants would be optimum.

I think I made the analogy clear enough that you would know that I was talking about someone who has a shitty life and is depressed. I even specified at the end that I'm not saying depression (such as the type you described above) doesn't exist, I'm just saying a majority of the people who take anti-depressants don't have that type of depression.

I'm saying the same with ADHD medications. If there is such a thing as ADHD, it's not as common as ADHD medication use.

And no, I don't think medication is "harmless" in either situation. If someone takes anti-depressants to "fix" their shitty situation, they're just covering the underlying problem. To this you suggest, someone should take both anti-depressants and behavioral therapy. Why would they be motivated to take behavioral therapy if they feel their life is fine, even if it isn't?

Giving an unruly sugar rushing kid ritalin to make them behave is not fixing the problem. If they DO have ADHD, that's fine. If they DON'T have ADHD, it's NOT harmless, because it's not going to fix their problem. It will make it look fixed on the surface, but you've still got an unruly sugar rushing kid, they're just drugged. If that problem is not dealt with PROPERLY, it could affect their future.

I think I made the analogy clear enough that you would know that I was talking about someone who has a shitty life and is depressed. I even specified at the end that I'm not saying depression (such as the type you described above) doesn't exist, I'm just saying a majority of the people who take anti-depressants don't have that type of depression. I'm saying the same with ADHD medications. If there is such a thing as ADHD, it's not as common as ADHD medication use.

Well, that's why I gave examples of both. I stated that for someone whose only problem is that he is depressed then anti-depressants are fine.

For someone who is depressed because of deplorable living conditions, the anti-depressants still fix the depression. That is what they are meant to do, and that is it. They are not meant to motivate you to fix your lamentable life, they are meant to help you cope with it. In this case anti-depressants fix the depression but may exacerbate the other problem. This, then, is the prescribing physicians call. We assume that their education makes them better qualified than us to make that call. Of course, this assumption may be faulty, however that is the assumption that society works by.

It seems to me you don't really have a problem with the medicine itself, you have a problem with the physicians and the assumption that society makes.

And no, I don't think medication is "harmless" in either situation. If someone takes anti-depressants to "fix" their shitty situation, they're just covering the underlying problem. To this you suggest, someone should take both anti-depressants and behavioral therapy. Why would they be motivated to take behavioral therapy if they feel their life is fine, even if it isn't?

I can't explain why those who are on anti-depressants seek out behavioral therapy. That said, I am positive that someone can. An overwhelming majority of those on anti-depressants also seek the counsel of a psychologist.

Giving an unruly sugar rushing kid ritalin to make them behave is not fixing the problem. If they DO have ADHD, that's fine. If they DON'T have ADHD, it's NOT harmless, because it's not going to fix their problem. It will make it look fixed on the surface, but you've still got an unruly sugar rushing kid, they're just drugged. If that problem is not dealt with PROPERLY, it could affect their future.

I never claimed that ADHD medicine fixed behavioral problems.

But if there was a medicine that could, would you really oppose it? Even if the effects only lasted while the kid was drugged up, and it didn't really fix what made him unruly, it seems good to me. I'm not saying that the medicine is the only thing you should give the kid and then neglect it. Of course you should try and make it to where the kid can coincide with society without medication, however if the behavior isn't fixable, isn't a life-time supply of medicine the next best thing? Does it not, after all, fix what we've been wanting to fix?

It's the same thing with AD[H]D medicine. It does not make you more adept at concentrating once your are off the medicine. It is a temporary fix. However, it gets you through the day. That is what the goal is here. Even with AD[H]D medication I would recommend behavioral therapy alongside. It would be great if we could "fix" the underlying cause, and in some cases this is possible. In most cases, however, that is an unrealistic goal.

In theory, if there were a pill that could fix all of our problems, I believe I would support it.

The problem with that, the same as with ADHD medication and anti-depressants, is people use them as an EASY fix. Why fix your shitty life if you can just take anti-depressants to do that for you? Why be a parent to your kid when you can have a pill do it for you? This is what I do not agree with, and this is how it is with a majority of the cases. This is seen in other places as well, such as the media. All of those "Moms Against BLAH BLAH" organizations and shit, where parents want everything in the world that isn't appropriate for kids to be censored or removed or what have you, instead of them doing their jobs and being PARENTS. A good example of this that I have readily available is the "Mothers Against Maddox" organization. You know who Maddox is, I assume. These mothers assembled to have his website shut down because they did not want him filling their kids heads full of "crap." They would rather do that than actually be parents and pay attention to what their kids are viewing online, perhaps blocking websites they don't want their kids viewing.

You're right, MJ, I don't think there's anything wrong with the medicines. I think it's wrong that people use these medicines to escape responsibility.

You're right, MJ, I don't think there's anything wrong with the medicines. I think it's wrong that people use these medicines to escape responsibility.

I was hoping the debate would reach this point. I just read the whole thing and agreed with most of what each of you had to say (sounds like it may not be possible, but it is).
Acceptance of responsibility is one of the biggest problems I see in society today. I'd elaborate right now, but I just had teeth pulled and am still kind of loopy from the anesthesia.

I'm going to have to side with KA on this one even though MJ makes some good points. I was diagnosed with ADHD and was on various drugs for many years culminating in being prescribed Effexor for depression. After about 6 months on Effexor I stopped taking all the drugs altogether. There is a short period (about a week) of pretty awful withdrawl but after that I have never felt better. Strange that I was raised in a family which was divided on the medicines approach and one parent was a minimalist and the other had no problem giving medicines. In my post-parental-care life I have found I enjoy the former approach and I have not been sick at least three years. I don't wash my hands unless I am in a situation where that kind of thing is socially unacceptable or unhealthy for others (i.e. cooking for my house, after pooping, going out to eat, shaking hands, etc.) and I feel that this likely strengthens my immunities to the pathogens in my immediate surroundings.

As for the ADHD, the condition is mental and the solution is mental as well. You have to learn to work with it and not suppress it with drugs because the drugs do not ONLY effect the ADHD condition and there are definitely other effects! My self-esteem was affected and my appetite was suppressed (which led to some strange belittling in school, further exacerbating my insecurities). When I was on the anti-depressants I realized that by actively focusing my attention (I suppose the method is similar in practice to Buddhism) I could, not ignore or suppress, channel the wild mind into a relatively constructive form. I still have trouble following social standards (this really only applies to school, I rarely study unless I am particularly worried and I still do quite well, and I tend to do my assignments the night before, or the minute before!, class because I cannot focus on them unless I absolutely need to). This doesn't really cause me any real trouble and it is only reflected in the attitudes of others around me.

I believe that ADHD is just a result of the over-restricted system that our kids have to endure these days. There are simply personality types that DO NOT FIT in accordance to the American (and other nations) norms. There are school out there which take alternate approaches to learning (you seriously cannot believe that a standardized educational system is going to work, mj) and they can show incredible improvement to the faculties (and "scores") of some (not all, obviously!) children. I think drugs should only be used as an absolute final resort and being more actively involved in your child's mind is a better way to help understand the "adverse" conditions that are present and then it is up to the parents to adjust the environments to try to work WITH the child's tendencies instead of forcing them to adapt which will certainly lead to a social (and no doubt financial) nightmare.

That's all I have to say at the moment but I am sure there is more kicking around. This is a good thread.

Wow, I had no idea you were batshit insane.


JK, I think we all knew.

I am by no means advocating that someone try and substitute pills in place of actual parenting because magic pills don't exist, however what is wrong with taking the easy way out when it works just as well as the alternative, and does not harm anyone?

RS, I am curious, if you believed that ADHD was a biological condition rather than a mental one would it change your opinion on whether or not medicine should be taken to resolve the problem?