Why do orcs suck so much?
 

:mad:
I've been loyal to the horde an it seems that orcs have quite a disadvantage, or maybe I'm just using them wrong if someone disagress with me can they explain why the don't suck?




- Bill Lumbergh

wow you sound like an orc yourself 'ive been loyal to the horde' but you gotta use bloodlust and such.

btw kickass name, Office Space was a HILARIOUS movie.

Orcs Dominate Tier 1 and Tier 3.. they are vulnerable at Tier 2 since there are no new good units to make.

orcs are good you just need to know what they are good against, each race is only good against another, some has dissadvantages against others, that is how the game was meant to be designed. thats why an experienced player will quicklly change the race depending on their oponent.

Random games you don't get a clue what the other race is. So "experienced players" don't get to change their race. By the way, many people say that Orc is the worst 1v1 race. I disagree. A good Teir 1 combo is Grunts and HH (HeadHunters). Teir 2 gets a little sticky. You have to just use the Teir 1 units, but buff them up a little with upgrades. Another strat you can use is build Beastiaries and get about 8 Raiders for a hit and run on their major buildings. This strat can cripple them, and helpfully leads to the Wyvern strategy. Wyverns with bloodlust, at a good speed, is practically undefeatble. There's my advice. Better not copy me :noid:

MUHAHAHahhahah
dont worry i dont have the game yet, but when i do... heheh:)

As long as I 0wn your sorry butt at my own game ^^ My Orc skillz 0wn your s0rry 0rc sk!llz

orcs are really good against night-elf. for one thing, peons can withstand lvl1 entangle.(thats what i use to fux people up in the beginning)++grunts are really strong compared to footmen and such

but also takes more money, food and time to train one.

I tried many different strats for 1 on 1 with the orcs, the best i came up with is the multi unit/statis ward/healing ward/purge/lightning shield strat. To use that stratagy, you must have quick hands and great accuracy and timing. O and btw all the beginning orc units pretty much suck. too costly, not enough damage or bonus'.

Orcs dont necessarily "suck"...it's just that there spellcasters are geared toward helping there own units instead of everyone elses that are geared more towards disabling the other teams main units....But orcs spellcasters can be easily countered by almost every race...dryads abolish magic and a priests dispel magic keep shamans constantly out of the fight from keep autocasting BL...and you cant really stop an undead from possessing your taurens?...or crippling your wyverns...Orcs are unfortunately the easiest race to counter....which makes them the weakest in my mind =/

Sorry that you're a queer who can't play the game. Maybe you should exchange it at the wal-mart you bought it from for Deer Hunter 6 Gold Edition.

:O)

Orcs do not suck - they have the best support casters in the game
(witch doctors + shaman)

They also have the best Tier 1 units (Grunts) vs
NE (hunts), HMN (footmen), UD (ghouls)

shaman's bloodlust is one of the most effective positive buffs in the game. also against an early rush - orcs have orc burrows and towers......

StonedTauren


"Orcs do not suck - they have the best support casters in the game
(witch doctors + shaman)"

Yes, Orcs do have the best support spellcasters in the game...thats why they ARE at a disadvantage...Every other spellcaster is designed basically to counter bloodlust and wards...and grunts ARNT best tier 1 any good player will tell you this grunts are very costly and without lust arnt very good early game.

theReyalP

"orcs are really good against night-elf. for one thing, peons can withstand lvl1 entangle."

Wow thats about the only thing i can think of that puts orc at a advantage over ne...lol...Orc are probably at the biggest disadvantage against night elf...kotg's entangle harrass will rape grunts early game...and late game...dryads abolish magic will keep healing wards gone and lust dispelled...druids of the talon have no problem keeping taurens in the air or in crow form owning wyverns hard...I'm not saying orc cant beat ne..no of course not any good player can find ways to overcome hardcore counters, but an orc basically has to go bloodlust to win and with races that can counter it with ease the race takes a lot to win with..

WhaBAM

"Random games you don't get a clue what the other race is. So "experienced players" don't get to change their race. By the way, many people say that Orc is the worst 1v1 race. I disagree. A good Teir 1 combo is Grunts and HH (HeadHunters). Teir 2 gets a little sticky. You have to just use the Teir 1 units, but buff them up a little with upgrades. Another strat you can use is build Beastiaries and get about 8 Raiders for a hit and run on their major buildings"

Yes, i'd have to agree random is definately the best pick to prevent hardcore combos....and no race is the 'best' 1v1 race..and it is best to mix up grunts and hh in tier 1...but building 8 raiders is definately not going to get you anywhere...i mean dont get me wrong raiders have there uses in games and they can be game deciding, but wasting money on 8 raiders means you could have had something ALOT more useful...(ie). 4 taurens..and in an orc vs orc...i think the best strategy to use is definately taurens raiders and shamans...but only 1 or 2 raiders to ensnare any wyverns that may damage your army...but other then that i wouldn't spend all that much time messing with raiders..thnx ^-^

o_O o_O

Yeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaahh... well... yeah... if you can't use the orcs efficiently, then don't use them at all...

Actually FliK orcs are ne's hardest race to counter. Ne's only real guaranteed chance to beat orcs is early, going hunts/ballista and preventing orc from fast teching. If orc get to bloodlust you will most likely lose period. Orc Shaman cost 2pop and 150gold to produce have 410hp and 400mana and do 19dmg avg. and bloodlust costs 50mana to cast and has no cooldown. Also gives +40% attack and +25% speed to units. Your dryads have 380hp and 200mana and abolish costs 75mana. If you really think that you can out abolish bloodlust then you are crazy. If they throw in witchdoctors with wards it is very very tough for ne to stop. Most add in taurens which I think are a mistake since cyclone can easily counter these but wyverns on the other hand can run circles around your DotTs with proper micro. Wyvern get +40% attack and +25% speed you better have 2-3 DotTs to every wyvern if you want to win this battle, especially since the shaman will be hitting you while the wyverns run you around. Throw in the fact the orc can tower creep while they quick tech and still have their heros relatively close in lvl to you makes it even worse for ne. There are ways to counter orc with ne but it requires the ne to play a very good game if they want to beat a orc player late game. Check warcraftstrategy.com Crazyassassin has written some decent articles on countering orc with ne, he also agrees that orc is ne's worst opponent.

Yummz ...first off you've obviously never had dryads dispel your bloodlust...shamans TAKE time to cast bloodlust its not instant..and why there AUTOCASTING bloodlust they are out of the fight..dryads have no cooldown on abolish magic so the first 15-20 seconds of the battle you can kiss your shamans out of the fight...and you really cant say ANYTHING about taurens...spellcasters own them...and hard...your never going to have more taurens then your foe has dott...and i think your underestimating that wyverns ARNT a great flying unit...500 hp ..and medium damage piercing it WONT take 2-3 dott's to kill each one sorry....and even if they had bloodlust (if for some reason you didnt go dryads) you can produce 2-3 dott at the cost/time of a wyvern..if wyverns dont have bloodlust and you have 7 talons and they have 4 wyverns...they wyverns have no chance u might loose a few dott...and if you think the only way to beat a fast orc tech is going hunts ballistas? you've OBVIOUSLY never played anyone remotely challenging.....and night elf are excellent scouters...with hunts early game the orc SHOULDNT be able to expo...if he does...oh well then you expo yourself he has no units he cant stop you...im not saying your wrong...or that your points arnt valid...im just stating that your looking at things 1 sided...or maybe you havent ever have dryads dispel your army multiple times and watch the shamans continously cast it keeping themselves out of the battle...but you should really be more sure of things before you post them...if crazyassassin thinks that orcs are the hardest race to counter with ne...thats great thats HIS opinion he doesnt speak for all of us..all that means is that HE has a hard time countering them not every other ne player...im not saying hes not a good player...i mean hes probably the best..just in his mind orcs hardest to counter for him..

FliK did you even read my post? Firstly I said Tauren are a BAD choice in my post since they are so easy to counter, but you obviously skipped over that part in your effort to flame me. Also you once again are trying to tell me that a 200mana dryads can out dispel a 400mana shaman which is absolutely wrong. Also you do realized that your precious dryads stop attacking to abolish the bloodlust so while the shaman are casting your dryads are dispeling. Not to mention you WILL run out of mana and they WILL have 1-2 healing wards left and plenty of shaman to bloodlust when you do. Play however you want and believe whatever you want, I really don't care I was just stating what my 600+ games of war3 have taught me. And of course CrazyAssassin who is #1 on all 4 USWest ladders prolly does not know what he is talking about either. Dryad/DotTs will lose to Shaman/Wyverns UNLESS you outmicro the other player, you can win this fight true but YOU have to be a better player, because the fight is in favor of orc all the way. 40% attack and 25% speed is all I have to say...

First off yummz i SAID TAUREN ARE A BAD CHOOSE vs spellcasters as a general statement did i say anything about you saying that ...no? please read what i write more carefully. And i never said ANYTHING about dryads outdispelling shamans again plz read what i wrote...i said dryads take no time at all to cast abolish magic...its instant..havr you seen it cast before? obviously not. Have you seen shamans cast bloodlust? it puts them OUT of the fight it takes them a relatively long time to cast it...and while the ONLY thing you have on the ground are shamans and witch doctors and the shamans are constantly bloodlusting and rebloodlusting everything the huntresses have already killed them..then your dott finish off the wyverns....and its nice that you keep repeating the effects of bloodlust lol...AND i like how you made it sound like i said crazyassassin doesnt know what hes talking about ...how about you READ WHAT I TYPE. i said if crazyassassin thinks that orcs are the hardest race to counter GOOD for him thats his opinion that doesnt mean its hardest to counter for me? it means what he does its hardest for him got it? good now shuttup..thnx...-_-

"and you really cant say ANYTHING about taurens...spellcasters own them...and hard...your never going to have more taurens then your foe has dott"

"First off yummz i SAID TAUREN ARE A BAD CHOOSE vs spellcasters as a general statement did i say anything about you saying that ...no? "

Funny how you conradict yourself, so eager to flame doesn't take the time to read, good job.

"Have you seen shamans cast bloodlust? it puts them OUT of the fight it takes them a relatively long time to cast it...and while the ONLY thing you have on the ground are shamans and witch doctors and the shamans are constantly bloodlusting and rebloodlusting everything the huntresses have already killed them..then your dott finish off the wyverns....and its nice that you keep repeating the effects of bloodlust lol..."

Ok let me put this to you simply, a GOOD orc player will go mass shamans, 3 hero to start and will throw in wyverns/1-2kodo/and witchdoctors soon after. Now this player will have 60-70pop in shaman that means they will should have:

15peons x15
3 heros x15
12shaman x24
1-2 wyvern x8
1 kodo x4
2 doctors x4
total 70

That is 70pop, typically I get a expo and go to around 80-85 pop by increasing the amount of wyverns right before a major battle. Now most ne will attempt to remove the heros from battle first, good move considering the blademaster with bloodlust can absolutely rape dryads if you don't remove him quickly. Now 12 shaman casting bloodlust and 2 doctors throwing down wards will NOT BE OUT OF THE BATTLE for very long whatever you believe. Also the Shaman do 19dmg average +4dmg from the kodo not even including increased speed from Tauren Chieftan. Your dryads do 22dmg avg before poison, so not only do my shaman do better base dmg than your dryads And your hunts first attack they attack 40-70%(depending on TC level) faster. Yes you will get a couple seconds before the battle to attack my shaman while they rebloodlust but it will NOT be a long time and most likely you will be using the time to micro on my heros. There is a good chance you will get 1 before the battle is done, especially if you went demonhunter first. That is where healing potions become your best friend, but that is a different discussion. My point is that your belief that dryads instant cast abolish (which is not instant, they have to raise their spear in the air, so prolly about 1sec cast with no cooldown) will not keep 12 shaman SO BUSY they are not in the battle. Shaman raise into the air, spread their arms and cast bloodlust, this take approx. 3sec max. that gives your dryads a 2sec advantage, which considering they can only keep up with the shaman 2x before they out of mana will not be sufficient for you to win this battle.

And I keep repeating the effects of bloodlust because apparently you do not seem to understand them they are very powerful, 40%attack and 25% speed in unbelievable for a caster that can do 23dmg for 150gold and has 410hp. Say what you will but that is way too beasty in my mind.

This is most likely my last post on this subject take it however you want, I expect a reply with you telling me again how dryads are instant casters and how bloodlust take so long to cast that shaman have no chance, I have not even brought up the range issue, alot of the time your dryads will not even be within range to dispel all my shaman...

Ok...i really dont even feel like reading that...or writing anything to contradict it cuase your so ignorant and look at things 1 sided that you just babble on ...Why dont you prove it to me if you keep thinking your right and so much better lol? Why dont we 1v1? ill post replay up on a new thread? ;)

I see, don't read it, you seem to do that often. I don't look at thing one sided, I just don't believe orc are at the disadvantage plain and simple. Ne are a great race, and with enough gay shit of their own, *ahem* Cyclone *ahem*. I am not a great orc player but I am not horrid either, I will play you if its convienent.
YuMMz
USWest Lordaeron

Speaking of which most of this debate is in ideal conditions which 2 good player rarely get a ideal army up of what they want exactly since the other player usually makes them make a couple changes. There is a good orc vs ne replay at http://www.progamer.ru/war3/replays.html
Ghostridahii vs Some Ne guy.

And look through the post I never once stated I was a better player than you, you seem to take everything so personal. ITS A FORUM DEBATE, settle down kid.

Ok, "kid" well you say its a form debate...and yes it WAS a form debate...but your so ignorant that theres no way you can be convinced that orc are at a disadvantage so i have to show you..and i like the "kid" thats real mature...And theres really no other way for me to show you that a dott can rape a wyvern solo...and EVEN if by some chance it is bloodlusted i garentee 2 dott's will have no problem killing a wyvern without loosing 1..i really dont see the logic your using when your trying to say orc dont have the disadvantage....so if you dont want to 1v1 i suggest you just stop arguing...i mean its not hard to make a custom game with set food and units and sim out a fight...Just dont try and get your point acorss by posting a replay of ghost vs some newb ne...cuase i can post hundreds of replays of an ne owning an orc in the same situation...

Names FIiK on east..

http://www.battle.net/war3/ladder/da...ateway=Azeroth

The debate is good but please keep flames in the

FLAME FORUM

Okay lets look at flik's responses...

"Yummz ...first off you've obviously never had dryads dispel your bloodlust"

"you've OBVIOUSLY never played anyone remotely challenging....."

"but you should really be more sure of things before you post them..."

That was just from his FIRST response, and his later response just got worse. I never once made any personal attacks against him in me first reply just stated the fact, hp/mana and casting time comparisons between dryads and Shaman and the response I get was, How I must suck and never play anyone good and should learn more about the game.... Uh yeah all I know is the first one to flame is 99% of the time the one who is wrong.

And I never once said you flamed.. I merely said:

If you didn't flame don't worry about it. ;)

yeah yummz and every one of those statements are true...although your persistance in trying to prove that spellcasters and air can beat ANTIspellcasters and ANTIair is funny..keep trying to convince me yummz lol

Nice comeback one day you might actually say something besides calling me a newb to prove your point. Warcraft 3 is far from balanced right now and casters doing way too much dmg and costing way too litte money is one of them. Caster are NOT the support units they are supposed to be in this game they can be the whole army. Which in my mind is a problem. So saying anti caster unit can beat caster unit is not quite accurate since caster a bit too powerful right now and can actually beat that anticaster unit. Plus once again my shaman are damn cheap at 150gold a pop and do more dmg than your dryads and have more hp. Economically they are a better unit. And over the course of the game that will have some effect.

yes mass spellcasters is the GAYEST thing in this game and its not balanced at all...you SHOULDNT be able to mass spellcasters but look at human...with brillance aura (which needs to be halved at least) mass spellcasters+ blizzard can beat almost ay army...ive lost to mass human spellcasters with mostly dryads..YEAH that should work right blizzard? my mass anti spellcasters looses to mass spellcasters....but in a 1v1 a shaman cant kill a dryad...and dryads do do more damage...but yeah blizzard needs to fix shit...but there moto is hey weve already made money selling the game why the hell should we spend TEN MINUTES OF our time to fix some simple coding to stop people from disc hacking....or maphacking...or even balancing the game...oh well what can you do =[

Play a game that is free and updated with new features, maps, fixes every 2 or 3 weeks, and has goverment funding until 2006.

Your right dryads with the lvl 3 upgrade do 22dmg and shaman do 19dmg, my mistake. I am going to load up a game and test 12 shaman vs 12 3-3 dryads and see who wins, because I am curious now, I think bloodlust will have enough impact after the first round of casting and dispelling that the attack speed difference will make up for the armor/dmg difference. This is not what I was argueing earlier though, since that involves a combo of units and good hero micro ;P.

cus they like men ???

i dont think you can really say any army can beat anouther army now that i think about it...warcraft 3 is really about micro...i think our early argument about the 2 armies can go either way determining just how good the other player can play/micro....thats one of the reasons i like wc3 alot more then other rts's like starcraft were the battle is over in like 3 seconds lol..and thatdude i hope dryads would like men there women >.<

I did the fight with 12 dryads and 12 shaman...here it is for d/l =]

http://spheresoft.0catch.com/DryadsVsShaman.w3g -you cant click the link though you have to copy and paste it into your browser...gay hotlinking -_-

dont ask me what MyNd was doing during the game i dont think hes played orc before heh

Orcs dont suck, you suck, you make them suck, scout and get the right combos and every race will own.

i Just wanted to put my 2 cents in

almata is right orcs dont suck, only gay things suck so unless blizzard left something out in telling peeps that orcs r gay, they do no suck either

/hopes people dont call him retarted for a retarted joke
/gets 2 cents in

anyone who thinks orcs are bad, goto pixelmethods.com and download some of stalker-crafts replays. that build is prefect, it beats everything

This thread's getting WAY too off-topic.

*CLOSED*

(Sorry guys, but you'll have to start a new thread if you want to continue this debate)