just though i should comment that cloud wields the "ultima weapon".. im sure that this blade can easily contest with a foot thick wall if not surpass it in immense proportions

should take a significant amount of energy to shoot and i could see cloud dodging or slicing the meteors or blocking/deflecting with the "ultima weapon"

still takes energy though right?

there is a limit to how high X can jump.. i dont think theres a limit for cloud flying around
oh and btw.. im quite sure a weapon of the likes of the "ultima weapon" could probably match the zero saber

if flying makes cloud tired enough to even stop for 5 seconds.. that would be a serious problem for cloud

raziel i think you are discounting the fact that X is a machine.. a robot.. even if cloud has strength above the normal human i dont think it can contest with a robot like X whose strength is greater even in comparison to the numerous battle mechs X encounters in the games

btw for those of you curious about ehrgeiz you might want to look here gamefaqs.com/features/recognition/1563.html has cloud in it
but the d-barrier or invincibility of X that senesia mentions will probably nullify a lot of this

theres something interesting from ehrgeiz.. the ability to dodge or "fade away" that can be used in the air as well and will allow cloud to dodge projectiles
and also even more fun is the "get-up" stuff where when cloud is knocked down he can stand up and do things like limited invincibility or fade-away or kick etc

i dont know how to count this.. but omnislash is treated like a throw move which may be able to get around the invincibility thing of X

actually no.. X has powerups that allow him to use maverick weapons without using up energy (normal shots i mean.. charged up shots still take up energy.. just less amounts)

For each of the 8 weapons, X can use them for about 8-12 times. (The charged Maverick weapons) With Blade Armor, it only consume one thrid of the energy. Actually, I'll list all his weapons in X6 at the bottom of this post.

The charged X-Buster/Z-Saber consumes no energy at all.

In Blade Armor, X's Air-Dashes can deal damage and he is semi-invulnerable. (And it travels for quite a long distance) Sure, Cloud can fly higher, but what will he be doing high up in the sky? Also, as many have mentioned, Cloud cannot sustain in the air forever, and he will take a lot of damage when he lands due to tiredness.

A throw move cannot get around the D-Barrier, this is how it works: Assuming that X gets hit, (And grabbed, stuck, whatever and can't get away) the first contact will deal damage, then D-Barrier will activate, and last for sevearl seconds (around 8 sec, doubled.) then if he's still in his opponent's grip, he will take another damage again, and the D-Barrier will activate once more.

His Maverick weapons: (Number of times he can use, charged)
Yammar Option: (24)
Summons 3 dragonflies (flashing) and they will shoot at random directions for around 15 seconds. Cannot be destroyed during this time. Afterward, they turn back to normal dragonflies. Then will shoot when X shoot. (They fly around X and shoot...)

Magma Blade: (36)
X fires a large fireball, then multiple fireballs will fly toward that same direction. Multiple hits.

Ground Dash: (18)
X freezes everything around him and creates a huge rock projectile, shooting it straight ahead. It has a very good area of effect.

Ice Burst: (18)
X's dashes will form icicles on his path. The icicles will move vertically, and damage the enemies which come into contact. The effect last for around 15 seconds.

Meteor Rain: (18)
X fires a bubble to the sky, and then it will rain bubbles. The bubbles will bounce around and they path are quite unpredictable.

Metal Anchor: (18)
X fires a metal squadron...down diagonally. Can hit multiple times. (Can be use in air)

Guard Shell: (24)
4 shells will be created at the 4 corners of the screen, and they will shoot purple energy shots. They stay for a pretty long amount of time.

Ray Arrow: (18)
X will fire large lasers straight up from the ground, covering half of the screen. Huge area of effect, huge damage.

X has a W-Tank, he can use that to refill all 8 of the weapons once. Also, he has D-converted equipped, and it will fill the weapon energy as X takes damage. He can use all his maverick weapons a lot of times.

well.. maybe its different but an example is in mmx1 the first boss grabs him without damaging or activating invincibility.. i remember ive seen this elsewhere as well.. ill try and find a source when and if i remember anything

anyways in a throw the grab doesnt damage.. it just catches and holds in place.. and then the damage is inflicted
the throw would effectively treat the entire throw as a single move.. thus it would bypass the d-barrier wouldnt it?

also if i remember correctly.. after shooting a charged shot X cant shoot anything or can only shoot normal buster shots right until the charged shot is over right? this would be a good opening for cloud (for some of the weapons)

having to stop flying is a big problem though.. but cloud could use the fade-away ability from ehrzeig

This is X6. The D-Barrier part, which X can equip, is something from X6 as well.

Throughout the Rockman series, the damage barrier activate when there is body contact.

X can still use his semi-invulnerable Mach Dash (Air-dash in Blade Armor...I think that's what it's called) to dodge most of the attacks after he released a maverick weapon charged shot.

You can stand on enemies that have platforms on them without activating the damage barrier right? Wouldnt standing on the platform (which is a part of the enemies body) be "contact?"
And if you remember the "lion" boss stage of mmx4.. you will remember that the boss in one of his specials actually charges and grabs X and then runs him into the wall without activating the damage barrier until he rams him into the wall.
I'm pretty sure the damage barrier.. being named a "damage" barrier.. is in direct relation to being activated by "damage" inducing attacks. And in all of the rockman series contact to non platform areas of enemies causes damage.. thus causing damage barrier activation.

And since throws are treated as single attacks and deal the damage as a single attack, the barrier would probably not be activated until the damage is dealt.
I will post some screenshots when i get the chance proving my point for the "lion" boss and the first boss of mmx1 and the platform theory so as to make the point more easily understandable.

.
And another very interesting point to pose.. any direct contact to X would cause damage.. thus Cloud would not need to even attack him but just touch him and then run.

Platforms on an enemies does not count as enemies.

Also, I am mainly talking about X6 here. The D-Barrier part, the Blade Armor are all from X6. What he is capable of doing in MMX1 has nothing to do with what X can do in Blade Armor.

As we all know, in MMX, any form of contact between X and an enemy will result in X taking minor damage. It is set to be like so that when we play the game, X can't just dash-dash-air-dash to the Boss room and ignore everything. But the damage dealt to X is negligible when he has Blade Armor on.

What is the point of them doing damage? Without armor (or certain part), X will get stunned whenever he's damaged. (made contact with an enemy, whatever) While the damage is still very little, it will stop X from moving freely.

With Blade Armor however, X will not be stunned when he takes damage. He can literally ignore everything and just go directly into the Boss room with his Air-dashes. (Avoiding the spikes, of course.)

In this system, all X cannot do on Cloud would be...say, he can't jump and land on Cloud's weapon or use Cloud's body to perfrom a kick jump.

i thought d-barrier just extends the time the damage barrier is active?

im taking into account the structure of the X series engine to try to argue that just clouds first touch on x will not activate damage barrier
and i still dont really see though how that proves that a throw attack version of omnislash would be affected by the invincibility
cloud is effectively going up and executing a throw attack on him.. just because he does not get stunned would not prevent him from being hit
it might allow X to instantly make a counter attack.. i guess

ok i just want to show some arguments to try to prove that the damage barrier will not stop said throw attack of omnislash
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-...121/Image1.jpg
this is from rockman x4 military train stage boss
at < half life the boss uses a special where he jumps at you and grabs you then rams you into the wall.. the invincibility does not kick in until you ram into the wall

i dont think you can say x6 does not use about the same engine as x4 and i dont think the invincibility acts differently
correct me if im wrong

think about what the invincibility after taking a hit was designed for.. the megaman engines all take damage when touching enemies.. thus you will take enormous amounts of consecutive damage if the invincibility did not exist
it would not make sense for the invincibility to kick in if megaman does not suffer from damage.. or is supposed to be "stuck"

Omnislash does not work like throwing. Omnislash is really a 15-slash combo, each slash has it own damage.

hm.. i should make my stuff easier to read i guess
in ehrgeiz.. a fighting game that contains cloud.. the omnislash is treated as a throw move
http://db.gamefaqs.com/coinop/arcade...iz_cloud_a.txt
section 4.6 check "executed throws"

It doesn't matter what it is treated as in a game. A throw move in an arcade or fighting game simply means that it's unblockable, or you have to get really close to the opponent in order to execute it. It still slashes multiple times, each time doing different damage. (In Ehrgeiz, it can be break out of too, from what I've read.)

What do you mean it doesn't matter what it is treated as in a game?

I think there should be some guidlines as to which games can be used to as refference. Like say for instance, cloud can only use skills and such from FF7. Understand what i mean?? That way it would cut down on all this controversy as to which skills are treated as what and what skills can block what and so forth. Just my input. I think cloud will descimate MegaMan for the simple fact cloud isnt human at all, his blood was fused with mako which inhances all of his natural abilities alot, hence his great power with a sword. Also, if cloud can defeat the ultima weapon and ruby weapon and emreald weapon he can most certanly defeat a little steal smuff dont you think?

we have already discussed most of those issues prior.. like defeating the "weapons"
cloud may be endowed with more power from the mako.. but the "vessel" is still a human body.. and furthermore cloud is still only strong in comparison to the humans of the game

i think you are referring to when you press block at the same time the opponent tries to throw you.. right when you are about to get thrown you flash white for like a half second or so.. this time allows you to counter the throw and escape.. i dont think you can break in the middle of a throw
but you are right the throw omnislash still hits multiple slashes each doing damage and if you are very fast and lucky you can actually kind of run away from it (parts of it since some of it is connected as combos)
there really isnt much thats usable from ehrzeig as far as attacks go.. since due to its fighting engine nature it consists mostly of powerful combo attacks
maybe only skull break and deathblow as individual attacks.. perhaps followed by tackle or soldier takedown (takedown does some damage and you will see why it might help below)

anyways i found something else too.. the tackle move which allows you to tackle units even while invincible
so Cloud could tackle X to the ground while X is invincible.. though im not sure how this will help Cloud all that much except give X less time to pummel Cloud while invincible

in any case my only main arguments for now are projectile evasion/fading out that can be used consecutively and clouds sword which additionally has far reach

ill still try to disprove the use of invincibility somehow.. im tempted to try to go on the basis that combos becomes like a single stream of connected attacks

Using all attack they have access to is the whole point of Zelaron melee.
Of course some character cant have access to everything they had because of special limitation.
Like X that actualy started as Blue Bomber, became Rockman, MegaMan then X. It would be impossible for him to have all those weapon equiped in one suit. Also, at a few occasion he did receive big modification which would render him incompatible with weapon he had in the past.

Like i said in a earlier post Cloud does not defeat weapons in 1on1. It's actualy with 2 partners and using spells/summons and items which he doesnt have on Zelaron melee. Now tell me something.

Can Cloud even stand a chance without ally, materia and items against any of the weapons ? The awnser is no. He would get destroyed.

Right now.. these are probably most of the arguments I can possibly think of right now.

Cloud has the influence of Mako in his blood and is stronger than the average human, especially evident that Cloud can wield such tremendous weapons and can do such feats as use his punctured body as a fulcrum to throw someone. This should help to lessen the advantage that X has, being a machine, but obviously being that Cloud is still in essence human it cannot eliminate the fact that X is still a machine and is stronger in comparison even to the other machines X encounters.

I am not sure as to the immediate usefulness of this but Cloud can do sword catch from Ehrgeiz and could be able to abuse this if X ever tries to whip the Z-saber on Cloud. It is of course highly disputable if Cloud could indeed catch the Z-saber. Cloud can also interrupt combos and since Z-saber hits multiple hits like a combo and weapons like charged buster that leaves plasma can also be seen like a combo Cloud may be able to interrupt these. Both of the aforementioned can be followed with a counter hit which apparently in Ehrgeiz do more damage than direct hits.

The mentioned air dash attacks or any other head on attacks could be countered Ehrgeiz style with throws/grabs or counter attacks.

Cloud can use his "evade" ability from Ehrgeiz.. which allows him to dodge attacks and this ability can be used consecutively to dodge multiple attacks. Evade can also be used in the air and Cloud continues to move while evading (if he is already in motion). Evade will be most effective against most of X's attacks (of which are almost all projectile). An important example is dodging X's charged buster attack.. while X shoots the attack Cloud can run and jump evade in for a close attack. Thus Cloud can prove formidable even without flying.

If in desperation Cloud can use his ability of flight from Kingdom Hearts, which is without saying a great advantage, especially for mobility and for avoiding most of X attacks. However, it should be noted that flight takes a large toll as Cloud must reportedly stop for as much as 5 seconds after flying.

Cloud has some special abilities like meteorain, but unfortunately take time to cast and Cloud would become easy prey for X and X's ability to shoot quickly. Cloud could probably be able to pull these off while flying though. Or he can use the Ehrgeiz versions (he has some shot attacks and metorain) which are faster since its from a fighting game.

Cloud can recover from being knocked down in "stand up" moves from Ehrgeiz which allows him to have limited invincibility or use the "evade" ability or even counter attack after standing up. This should be useful if Cloud is hit.

Cloud's blade the Ultima Weapon should not be underestimated. Ultima Weapon is not just an oversized sword and "isn't even technically metal, it's a weird half-energy, half matter composite if anything." A weapon of such properties would probably be able to deflect concentrated energy in the form of projectiles or at least absorb the impact and could probably match X's Zero saber. The Ultima Weapon is also the most powerful weapon in Kingdom Hearts as well. Clouds blade could also prove useful as a shield for blocking and deflecting attacks.. especially the projectile attacks along with the "evade" ability. Cloud's blade is additionally a far reaching and damaging weapon.

Senesia has brought out a very strong and annoying (for argument against X) point of the invincibility for X after sustaining damage. This allows X to be invincible for some time after he has been hit and is used as a powerful point by Senesia that any attacks that involve multiple hits or combo attacks will be useless since the first hit will activate the invincibility. For now, unless combo attacks can be treated as a single attack, only the first hit will be effective thus rendering many of Cloud's attacks ineffective.. especially those from Ehrgeiz and attacks like omnislash. For this the ability to "tackle" from Ehrgeiz will prove useful as an opponent who is invincible can be tackled. Cloud can use one hit specials or multiple hit specials that end quickly and follow with a tackle move.

There is a limit to how many times the maverick weapons of X can be used (limits are around 18 24 36.. not much of a limit.. and then the W-tank). And then there is U-Buster which allows all shots to be charged shots. But charged maverick shots must finish before maverick weapons or charged shots can be used again (is this different in X6? or have i remembered incorrectly?).
This should give Cloud a small opportunity. Added also that Cloud would probably be able to sustain damage from more than one charged shot, the Ultima Weapon should be able to protect Cloud somewhat, and Cloud may be able to dodge some of the attacks especially with evade; Cloud could use one of his stand up abilities after being hit and may be able to survive until X uses up the energy. Also to note is that none of those maverick weapons are specifically Cloud's weakness and maverick weapons do not do a whole lot of damage to bosses that are not weak to the specific weapons. This may improve Cloud's ability to resist damage from those weapons.
Also to note is the mention that Cloud can stomach a supernova: (merriam-webster) the explosion of a very large star in which the star may reach a maximum intrinsic luminosity one billion times that of the sun. I would say thats a whole lot of damage to stomach and if that is weak.. then perhaps you should scale up all attacks in ff7 as I'm pretty sure most of the attacks in megaman x series are not to the degree of exploding stars.. not to mention things of "magical" power.

Or maybe Cloud can taunt X to death (Ehrgeiz) and piss X off so much that his circuits burn out.

Anyways, I tried. lmao

ehrgeiz -> mame ~27mb zip ;i like fighting games
megaman zero 1/2 -> gba ~3.5mb ;small & may have details to end this.. and who doesnt like megaman?
have a version of x5 but it doesnt run (freezes comp with black screen probably comp fault)
ill probably never get my hands on x6.. sounds cool/fun tho

Well, Cloud did have to beat Ruby on his own. Not all his battles are through the use of 3 characters and teamwork, he does actually have a lot of individual quests and battles that he fair quite well in.

Either way, I'm basically disregading any arguement that would put Cloud at a disadvantage just because most of the game he has 2 other people's help. That isn't and shouldn't be a concern.

I don't think sword catch can catch Z-saber, mainly because it is an energy weapon.

Air-Dash attack (Mach Dash) in Blade Armor is semi-invincibile. X cannot be stopped, stunned, hurt, caught during the dash.

X can evade attacks just as well as Cloud. (With his double jumps, air dash, ground dash, etc.) He can even air dash in all 4 directions, frontdash and backdash, and he can finish the dash with a really long-ranged jump. When he is doing all his jumping and dashing, he can use any of his attacks. When X is dodging an attack, he can be countering and firing back at Cloud at the same time.

X doesn't have to get close to Cloud if Cloud is being knocked down... X can shoot him and make him get up from a distance. Keeping a distance from the enemy is always X's way of battling.

About the damage barrier, well you see, X has his disadvantages. He can't block. Well he can, by using certain Maverick weapons, but naturally he can't. It is how it is in-game. When an enemy shoot multiple missiles at X, if the first one hits, X will take damage and start flashing (or, a circular energy barrier will surround X), other missiles will hit X as well, but they won't count for any damage when the barrier is active / when X is flashing.

Cloud's Dexterity is just on the average range (the speed, on a round based battle system)... for he's wielding such huge weapon and all, his movement should be slower comparing to X. Cloud's magic defense is just average (Spirit), but even if you are to say that Maverick weapons are physical...True, Cloud doesn't have a specific weakness to any of those maverick weapons (He's not a Maverick, afterall. I hope...) The argument about Maverick weapons not doing lots of damages are faulty. Charged Maverick weapons do immense damage when they hit, some of them, Ray Arrow for instance, are even comparable to the Gaia attack.

There are several things you're forgetting though. X's weapon energy will recover as he takes damage, and he has two Sub-Tanks and 1 Life recover. Plently of energy before he'd fall down. (By the way, I've never seen X fall down...he can get stunned if he doesn't have certain part equipped, but fall down on the ground...but it's something minor.)

P.S. Got to go out...might come back.